Indoctrination, Control and its Aftermath

Zehava

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:12 pm

nchr wrote:

If behaving in class was not age appropriate, then kids wouldn't be in school. At a certain age, certain behaviors have been met. I don't understand. Just like it's not appropriate for an adult to tantrum or have a pacifier, it's not appropriate for a 9 year old to jump around in class.

Yes there is the expectation
And then there’s the age appropriate reality
Kids are in school to learn. Part of that learning is behavioral not just intellectual. Which means that yes children are expected to sit still in class. And yet there isn’t a single class in which students are 100% well behaved 100% of the time. Teachers understand that. Unless maybe that child is terrified of getting extreme punishment at home if they misbehave. And even then.

nchr

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:13 pm

ExtraCredit wrote:

I’m stuck on the bolded. Are they supposed to sit on the couch with seat belts? Speaking of belts, I hope- never mind!

Lol no. Just not anything wild.

amother

Cerise

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:13 pm

I was raised by a very controlling father who did everything in the name of "Yiddishkeit", who constantly threatened us with Gehinom and warned us that anything we did that wasn't to his liking was "assur d'oraysa".

As adults, his children are frum (its own miracle), but none are living a Yiddishkeit as he preached it.

I'm not saying that יראת שמים has no place in chinuch, but when there is only coercion and control, you won't get the long-term results you wanted.

ExtraCredit

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:19 pm

nchr wrote:

Lol no. Just not anything wild.

Oh ok. I don’t allow jumping on the couch either but on the floor is fine.

crust

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:20 pm

nchr wrote:

1. Cantonists removed children from their home and had no intention of "raising" them. By default, that would require some type of indoctrination. The purpose, as far as I understand, was not to take children and create productive individuals by instilling a proper work ethic.

2. Chinuch, on the other hand, is with the goal of creating something long term, forever. What that something is is dependent upon the parents and obviously not everything is a healthy suggestion, but for the sake of this conversation let's say the goal of some parents is to raise functional individuals, a legacy/extension of you, expand klal yisroel, successful individuals, etc. Some a mother who grooms her child to be a dayan or doctor has made it clear to her child that being a dayan or a doctor is a long term goal, not a temporary behavior that is expected to be engaged in for 25 years.

3. Much of what we are forced to do doesn't stop once we reach adulthood or marry. Maybe I won't need to clean my mother's dishes any longer, but I cannot just go and drop the 20 years of chinuch and run away because I'm part of a family and a community, and I am a Jewish individual who has a Torah I must follow. Military service has an expiration date, but Yiddishkeit, serving Hashem does not. Regardless of what "tactics" you use, it's not like they will just stop because the service doesn't end after 25 years.

4. We are forced to do many things. That's just the reality of life. We experience that as adults. Why is it taboo to experience that as a child?

5. A moral compass is developed based upon what we observe. If parents want their children to say thank you, they need to model that behavior. A punishment for not saying thank you is a reinforcer, but it would not exclude the child from learning the behavior if the parents find it to be important.

6. Children are supposed to have some level of fear. We have that in regard to Hashem. People are afraid of the police. When I wear a seat belt I do so because it is the law, but I have internalized that. If someone has not yet, what is wrong with wearing it because they are afraid not to?

7. Yes, identity is complicated. We lose our identity because we are somewhat shaped and molded by our society. However, this is the reality in any insular community. Part of my identity is decided by that of those around me. That doesn't mean my identity is non existent or less true.

8. If we believe Torah to be true, then it doesn't matter if someone has stopped screaming because you're required to comply with the truth or, well, someone is going to scream at you after 120. And if you are okay with that, then you have the adult choice to make in that regard.

Obviously reality is more reasonable an balanced, but I don't think fear, force, coercion, etc. are in and of themselves the problem. I've also heard this complex applying to childhood overachievers, which is why I suppose it is better to fit in and be unremarkable than the alernative.

1. Ok. I agree.

2. Agree.

3. Loaded topic.
A. What does yiddishkeit mean bechlal? I guess I should start a spinoff.

B. I do know many people that were mechinuch with a distorted version of yiddishkeit and did drop it after they left their parents home.

What I understand the Ch"Ch to be saying is that if you want your children to do the things that are important, you should not be them mechanech with fear or force.

4. It is not taboo. Children are, in a sense, forced to go to sleep take care if their hygiene and learn.
A lot depends on what our underlying motivation is.

If we make them go to sleep because law and order is important to me then, no. Its not chinuch. I'm basically serving myself.

6. That's exactly what the chofetz chaim says;

If you raise children as if you are the police and they are your citizens, then, when you are not around, they will not obey.

7. True.
What about an identity within the confines of that specific community or group?

Parents can allow their children to develop an identity within the confines of a specific community.

8. If that someone screaming knows the Torah inside out and knows what deserves screaming then I am ok with that.

But, I don't know such a person so I will rather wait that the bezdin shel malah should scream at me.

Regarding your last paragraph. I have a lot to discuss.
I'll be back.

Zehava

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:21 pm

ExtraCredit wrote:

Oh ok. I don’t allow jumping on the couch either but on the floor is fine.

Have you ever tried jumping on the couch? It’s a ton of fun. I don’t spend too much on the couches I know my kids will use.

keym

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:23 pm

Zehava wrote:

Have you ever tried jumping on the couch? It’s a ton of fun. I don’t spend too much on the couches I know my kids will use.

When I got rid of my last couch, I saved all the cushions for them to jump on.
I don't allow much jumping on the couch because it damages the couch.
I'd rather trampolines.

ExtraCredit

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:24 pm

Zehava wrote:

Have you ever tried jumping on the couch? It’s a ton of fun. I don’t spend too much on the couches I know my kids will use.

Sure my grandmother’s old one when she didn’t see! Sure is fun! My kids will hafta do with jumping on a pogo stick or trampoline. Unless if they’ll use the couch when I don’t see. TMI

ExtraCredit

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:24 pm

keym wrote:

When I got rid of my last couch, I saved all the cushions for them to jump on.
I don't allow much jumping on the couch because it damages the couch.
I'd rather trampolines.

Oh, we have the same preferences! Laugh

FranticFrummie

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:26 pm

I was raised by parents who did not allow me to ask "Why?" It made me deeply angry and resentful.

I always allowed DD to ask "why?" She didn't always get the answer she wanted, but she did get the best answer I can give her. I think I can count on one hand the times I broke my own rule and said "Because I'm your mom, and I'm the grown-up in the house. That's why!"

As long as you respect authority, I think it's perfectly valid to "question authority". Hashem does not need robots. We have free will and intellect for a reason.

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:27 pm

You are all missing the point, I wanted to bring across.
My focus was- is the strict teacher succesful when her charges are controlled in class, yes temporarily, while she has the hold.
Did she teach them the importance of working/learning in a quiet atmosphere...no!
How do we know? The proof is in the minute she leaves, there is chaos. ( that's partly because they can't move in her class, so they need to give off their energy, mostly they behaved in class out of fear of the punishment, so now the fear is gone)

On the other hand, a teacher who disciplines, but is not a monster & also engages her students in the lessons, will her students have this urge to jump out of their seats, the minute she leaves? NO!

nchr

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:37 pm

Zehava wrote:

Have you ever tried jumping on the couch? It’s a ton of fun. I don’t spend too much on the couches I know my kids will use.

Maybe I'm naive, but I'm pretty sure my kids would never think of jumping on a couch because a couch is something you sit on. Just like they would try to sleep under the bed. I've seen kids who jump on couches and it's usually because they haven't been around couches, their parents haven't discussed appropriate couch behavior, or they are just extra wild. I do have a little tikes trampoline though, but I am on the edge about that decision, but it's been in use for a few years so..

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:39 pm

Even more, if the teacher was able to impart the message of quiet during work, through explanations & kids see quiet is for their benefit & not for teacher's control, when she leaves & gives then assignment to do, they will work quietly.

princessleah

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:43 pm

Kohlberg's Stages of Moral Development

Level 1. Preconventional Morality
The earliest stages of moral development, obedience and punishment, are especially common in young children, but adults are also capable of expressing this type of reasoning. At this stage, Kohlberg says, people see rules as fixed and absolute. Obeying the rules is important because it is a means to avoid punishment.

Level 2. Conventional Morality
Often referred to as the "good boy-good girl" orientation, the stage of the interpersonal relationship of moral development is focused on living up to social expectations and roles. There is an emphasis on conformity, being "nice," and consideration of how choices influence relationships.

This stage is focused on maintaining social order. At this stage of moral development, people begin to consider society as a whole when making judgments. The focus is on maintaining law and order by following the rules, doing one’s duty, and respecting authority.

Level 3. Postconventional Morality
The ideas of a social contract and individual rights cause people in the next stage to begin to account for the differing values, opinions, and beliefs of other people. Rules of law are important for maintaining a society, but members of the society should agree upon these standards.

Kohlberg’s final level of moral reasoning is based on universal ethical principles and abstract reasoning. At this stage, people follow these internalized principles of justice, even if they conflict with laws and rules.

amother

Ivory

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:45 pm

I think there needs to be a clear distinction between parenting and chinuch. Parenting & teaching our children life skills and how to navigate the world is not a form of indoctrination. Chinuch needs to be separated into two categories - basic halachos and all else (Chumros, cultural expectations and personal traditions). Teaching our children the basics of halacha and Torah doesn't generally fall under indoctrination. It's the all else though that can easily fall under indoctrination. It depends on how you go about it.

In general children will understand why the parents insist on the basic life skills and appropriate behaviors. They generally also will understand the basics of yiddishkeit and Torah. It's usually the chumros and personal expectations that kids can take issue with, and the outcome of that is dependent on how the parents go about it. If you force those onto the children, indoctrinating them that those are as mandatory as basic life skills, respectful behaviors and halacha, then there's a good chance it will backfire. If you clearly delineate the differences for the children, and lovingly teach them why you do them, there's a much higher probability that the children will follow suit.

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:45 pm

nchr wrote:

I understand your kids don't jump on couches in your home! What happens when they are at a friend's home who doesn't have such strict couch rules, and everyone is jumping there, and you are not present, do they join their friends or they will not because their friends couches will get ruined or because they are afraid of being reported?

honeymoon

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:47 pm

nchr wrote:

Your kids must be made of different material than the kids I know. Most children will see a couch as a perfect trampoline. Not because they are wild and unruly, but because they are healthy children. And couch behavior? Is that a subsection of the book entitled 'My Children, the Soldiers'?

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:47 pm

Well I had to shlep kids out from under the bed, where they created sleeping quarters, to go into their bed. Lol

keym

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:50 pm

nchr wrote:

All right. I'll bite. What's wrong with a little tikes trampoline?

honeymoon

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 4:54 pm

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

In general children will understand why the parents insist on the basic life skills and appropriate behaviors. They generally also will understand the basics of yiddishkeit and Torah. It's usually the chumros and personal expectations that kids can take issue with, and the outcome of that is dependent on how the parents go about it. If you force those onto the children, indoctrinating them that those are as mandatory as basic life skills, respectful behaviors and halacha, then there's a good chance it will backfire. If you clearly delineate the differences for the children, and lovingly teach them why you do them, there's a much higher probability that the children will follow suit.

And then there are the children who are taught chumros and cultural expectations in a decent and loving way and still reject it because they don't identify with it and it doesn't resonate with them.
Think of a young adult choosing a different derech in yiddishkeit. We don't control out children's destiny. We can only do our best and pray that they find satisfaction and joy in their yiddishkeit, regardless of the path they take.