Indoctrination, Control and its Aftermath

zaq

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:14 pm

dankbar wrote:

If you have a loving relationship with your kids, and you are a true role model (not a hyprocite, who says do what I say, but not what I do) & you bring in the Ahava towards Hashem, Torah, mitzvos, shabbos & yom tov then hopefully, your children will want to emulate you & follow in your path. Still we need tons of siyatta dishmaya, daven & daven then everything should go right, along the way, and nothing should get in the way to mess them up.

in theory. but there are no guarantees. bringing up children is not a chemical formula, that if you take X grams of iron filings and Y grams powdered sulfur and heat it at Z degrees for W minutes you will always get N grams of iron sulfide. Suppose your children have minds of their own and discover a different path that makes sense to them more than yours? Would you consider yourself a failure as a parent? Complain that things "didn't go right" and that something "messed them up"? What makes you so sure your way is the only way, the best way, or the best way for your kids?

I like whole wheat. I always fed my children whole wheat. I would shep nachas if my dc used whole wheat. Guess what? They don't. Am I disappointed? Yes. Do I reject their challah? No. Do I feel that they are "messed up"? No. Rejecting me? No. Disrespecting me when they come for Shabbat and bring white challah? No. Do I feel that I have failed as a whole wheat parent? No. I did my part; the rest is out of my hands.

keym

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:17 pm

zaq wrote:

But if you made your entire identity as "the whole wheat mom" you probably would feel rejected.

honeymoon

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:19 pm

ExtraCredit wrote:

That’s tough too! I’m not a white sheep nor a black one. I’m a goat. My siblings are monkeys, cows, horses, parrots, sea lions... Together we make a happy jungle, er- family where everyone is accepted and no one is judged.
Life would be so boring with a bunch of clones.

Count your blessings.

ExtraCredit

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:34 pm

honeymoon wrote:

Yes it is. Though it will come easier to the ones that were raised that way than to the ones who are the black sheep.

Absolutely agree! It will also come easier to those who are willing to be open minded and expand their horizons instead of continuing negative patterns just because they’re afraid to admit that something was wrong with the way they were raised.

Zehava

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:34 pm

honeymoon wrote:

Yes it is. Though it will come easier to the ones that were raised that way than to the ones who are the black sheep.

You mean the ones who are the white sheep
Us black sheep know a thing or two about individuality

Last edited by Zehava on Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

nchr

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:35 pm

Zehava wrote:

Thankfully!
We are the black sheep and we are the ones that got away.
Forever proud and so grateful to be the black sheep and the one who is free to be myself.

Interesting thing is I tried to be a black sheep and exert control over myself in many crazy ways that could be kept private ans not thrown into peoples faces that have changed over the years from wearing shticky hats, makeup, eating vegan, trying to find an interesting job, watching movies, traveling and pretending it was just to NJ but going somewhere else or many more extreme behaviors that are too personal to share but I neved ch'v did something against halacha. I regret almost every one of these moves and I'm happy my life circumstances made me stop like I cannot not eat meat in my home because of chinuch and how long can I keep it a secret from my family or neighbors if it's not just me? So internet is something I have but maybe in 3 years I'll have moved on from that yetzer hara. There is nothing wrong with being a white sheep and realizing from black sheep behaviors it is not for you. On the other hand, maybe if I confronted the demons that took me there, I wouldn't have tried crazy behaviors that are not me. But a black sheep or a cow or goat isn't always better than a white sheep.

amother

Lime

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:38 pm

nchr wrote:

Most of what you listed is not a yetzer hara. We are allowed to enjoy this world. Having an interesting job, traveling to new places etc... is just part of being a human. It makes me sad that you think this is normal, good and the right way to live.

Zehava

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:40 pm

nchr wrote:

That is very understandable. Many teens end up with eating disorders because the only thing they can control is what they eat. Veganism is often a form of an eating disorder.
In my own home I am not raising sheep of any color. I am raising individuals with love, respect, and acceptance.
I am very grateful to be a black sheep since it is the reason my children will never be sheep of any color. The white sheep are raising sheep of their own.

nchr

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:45 pm

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

I'm sorry for selfishly making this thread, which could have had academic value, into something about me. If someone rejects something and comes back to what they tried to run away from it is a sign they believe what they ran away from to be true for lack of better words.

crust

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:46 pm

nchr wrote:

You know that the answer is that everything is easier than to face reality.

Yes maybe in 3 years from now you won't have internet.

Maybe in 3 hours.

Therefore I will ask you in the name of every single erliche Jewish person that I know;

Please don't send your children to the corner.
Please don't hit them.
Please don't use a belt.
Please stick up for them.
Please take responsibility for them. They are yours. You will give din vcheshbon for mishandling them or for letting someone else mistreat them.
Please give them hugs.
Please tell them that you love them.

You deserve to be loved. You have a divine essence.

Hugs.

amother

Lime

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 4:57 pm

nchr wrote:

Possibly or it's a sign they weren't strong enough to stick to something better and familiarity was comforting and easier. I am living very different than my family, I'm not less frum just doing different things, and I don't regret any of it. I did almost go back to what was familiar but that would have been a lack of strength to make changes that make me a happy and better person, not because it was a better or more correct way of doing things. I am a better mother and jew because I am free to be happy and explore things that I enjoy.

LovesHashem

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 5:20 pm

nchr wrote:

If you are going into someone else's home and you are intentionally bothering or disrespecting them, then something is very very wrong. I cannot even believe there are people who think that intentionally dressing in a way that will irritate your parent in said parents home is acceptable. What you should in your own home or in the street may be up for discussion (so I'll say continue to respect in the street, but you may say no do what you need to do) but the idea of disrespecting someone in their own home is just absurd. If this opinion is mainstream it is no wonder there are serious behavioral problems in today's youth.

But according to our logic and halacha this is not part of kibud av viaim. So if you dress to make your friends and neighbors comfortable as well... Then I guess you do you.

But if it's just your parents that's not what the Torah holds of you.

LovesHashem

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 5:31 pm

nchr wrote:

Then why even bother teaching your children anything? Setting any limits or having any rules? Why look for schools that fit hashkafically? Why identify with any group? Why bother?

Limits are for their health. Rules are to help guide them to be good people. Like limiting soda and unhealthy friends and TV and exposure to inappropriate things is for their mental and Phsyical health. House rules are to help them became adults with character and middos and also to make MY life easier. If you never have to clean up guess who cleans up it all? Me.

And who will clean and wash your clothing when you are 20 and move out?

I will send my kids to schools and identify with groups that share these values of being good humans and value mental and Phsyical health. I also again want to limit things and would choose a school based on that.

I value honestly and Hashem and care and relationships. I want my child to be surrounded by people who share those values.

I don't care if my kid ends up litvish or sefardi or DL or chassidish. I just want them to know I love them. Hashem loves them and I want to have a relationship with them and them to be functional healthy human being with good middos who want to do good in this world! And take care of themselves mentally physically and emotionally.

Why do you have rules? To decide who they are? Then if they aren't themselves and don't make decisions then why create them unless it's just to give you pleasure and enjoyment and control?