Indoctrination, Control and its Aftermath

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zaq

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 6:10 pm

keym wrote:

But if you made your entire identity as "the whole wheat mom" you probably would feel rejected.

But I would never do that. Why would I want to be one-dimensional?

zaq

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 6:13 pm

nchr wrote:

I'm sorry for selfishly making this thread, which could have had academic value, into something about me. If someone rejects something and comes back to what they tried to run away from it is a sign they believe what they ran away from to be true for lack of better words.

Not necessarily. It can mean they lacked the courage, perseverance or other emotional resources to stick to it and ran back to what was confining but familiar.

keym

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 6:15 pm

zaq wrote:

But I would never do that. Why would I want to be one-dimensional?

Exactly my point.
A mother who can reject her kid for wearing a different head covering probably has most of her identity tied up in her head covering.

ExtraCredit

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 6:20 pm

keym wrote:

Exactly my point.
A mother who can reject her kid for wearing a different head covering probably has most of her identity tied up in her head covering.

Her identity is tied up in the pretied or the tichel? Sorry couldn’t resist! TMI

zaq

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 6:40 pm

keym wrote:

Exactly my point.
A mother who can reject her kid for wearing a different head covering probably has most of her identity tied up in her head covering.

and how sad is that?

honey36

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 6:43 pm

My question is, what do you do if your children follow all the rules, are very obedient and respectful, but are also miserable? They do everything you say with a "smile", of course, no chutzpah, but inwardly they are krechtzing and rolling their eyes. They want some freedom! So would this child be considered a "success"? You did great in terms of your chinuch? Somehow I don't think this is what Hashem wants.

crust

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 6:48 pm

honey36 wrote:

I am trying not to respond on this thread anymore because I was already called out for being condescending without understanding why but I really like your question and it's the driving force behind my way of yiddishkeit.

I want to point out that when someone is only serving Hashem with an image there is no consideration of an inside.

It's shallow service. The goal is the outside.

It's like a wax museum. Everything is perfectly in place but there is no life. No real connection to Hashem.

mommy3b2c

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 7:43 pm

asmileaday wrote:

It's interesting that you bring this up. I only once heard someone express this. She hates her beige tights but only keeps wearing it because it would bother her mother very much if she takes it off. So I asked her, would you care if your kids don't wear beige? She said it would bother her because she was never able to take it off and she'd be resentful that her kids can.
I thought it was pretty weird, but maybe I just can't relate. I know that if I don't like something I'd be very happy if my kids have an opportunity not to do that something.
I think it points to a bit of dysfunction not to allow your kids something because you were resentful of not being allowed that.

This. I am exactly the opposite. I spoil my kids way too much with all the things that my parents didn’t let me have or do. There’s something wrong with a parent who’s resentful of her own children.

dankbar

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 8:14 pm

Nchr, so you see for yourself in homes where it's too strict, and you are not happy, and you are never good enough, then people seek different pleasures. You experimented & saw thete's nothing out there that you are missing ok.
In order for your kids to not try experimenting & veer from your path, is not by sheltering them & forcing them with strictness, and not allow questioning. If they won't feel loved, understood, & restricted for no reason, making them unhappy/miserable, they will have even more reasons to seek happiness in different pastures.
Usually, if kids are happy, they won't venture out to the unfamiliar, unkown.
If they are suffering they try different routes to gain happiness & you can't know how far they will go.
Todays youth don't take authoritarian rule like generation before & there is easier access to everything.

amother

Vermilion

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 11:34 pm

My mom has a dil who changed her head-covering quite a number of years after getting married. My mom was furious, and devastated. Didn't know how to handle it. Yes, SHE WAS WILLING TO CUT OUT HER DIL, but didn't. Instead of making rash decisions, she went on and asked daas Torah how to go about it. Guess what they said?? Don't remember exact words., but something like, Never don't allow your kid to enter your house. Closing doors is like shutting down Yiddisha neshamas.
And that's daas Torah who said it.

ExtraCredit

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 11:36 pm

Oh, this thread went back on topic by some miracle! Smirk

crust

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 11:41 pm

ExtraCredit wrote:

Oh, this thread went back on topic by some miracle! Smirk

That's why I opened OTD thread .02
Gloomy Weather Wiki

ExtraCredit

Sun, Nov 01 2020, 11:44 pm

crust wrote:

That's why I opened OTD thread .02
Gloomy Weather Wiki

Oh, I didn’t put .02 and .02 together.

Mama Bear

Mon, Nov 02 2020, 9:19 am

asmileaday wrote:

This spun off into a completely different direction than I intended it.
It's not something like wearing beige or colored.
It's more like, a different dynamic between mother and child.
Let me think of an example...
Hypothetically:
Suppose my mother was very controlling/interfering when I was newly married. (This is hypothetical).
Then when my own daughter gets married, as much as I'd love to let her spread her own wings and fly, the little girl inside of me (or shana rishona lady) is still really resentful that my mother kept meddling when I was newly married and therefore I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut with my own daughter bc a part of me thinks it's unfair that I wasn't given that opportunity. As badly as I know the right thing to do is to give her space, there's this unmet need of my own, to be afforded more space as a newlywed, that I can't stop myself from voicing my opinions more often than I'd like, bc I'm still bitter at my own experience.
(this is hypotheticaly, I dont have any daughters, nor have I married of kids).
So it's not about yiddishkeit things, it's a psychological thing.
For example, suppose NCHR really deep down doesnt care if her kids jump on the couch. But since her parents never let her jump on the couch, why should she let her kids do it? I wasnt allowed, why shoudl they be? Even if it's not a bad thing to do. Bc she'd have loved to do it but wasn't, so she can't bring herself to let her kids.

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Nov 02 2020, 9:25 am

I relate to that. When I realized I was almost jealous of my daughter for being carefree and popular when I was never allowed that, I quickly worked to change my tone and perspective. I'm so happy for her. I'm so thrilled that she is healthy and talented and secure. I'm lucky to have such a daughter.

Mama Bear

Mon, Nov 02 2020, 9:32 am

Boy I'm so wordy and ineloquent. Probably what I was trying to say is simple jealousy at your child being able to do something you couldn't so you have a hard time letting them.

Mommyg8

Mon, Nov 02 2020, 9:36 am

Ok, so I hope this question does not come off as insensitive, but:

From what I've noticed of the Chassidishe world - there's a lot of emphasis on conformity and fitting in. As well as a certain pride some families have - which nchr describes somewhat - of saying and doing the right thing all the time. When this attitude does not go to the extreme, I do see that it works in the sense that it was meant to. Keeps people toeing the line. Following the rules. I mean, maybe those on imamother are the ones who were burnt from the system, but you see Chassidus is really keeping strong and I would imagine this is one of the reasons.

I've always admired this about this world, and I'm wondering why everyone on this thread is perceiving it as a complete negative?

dankbar

Mon, Nov 02 2020, 9:42 am

Jumping on couch is not such a good example, because everyone knows jumping on couch ruins the couch, even if it does happen.

More of deprivations I would say, like if someone was chalishing for a gameboy, American girl doll, but mom doesn't allow, this can be for hashkafa reasons ok, so it might be justified not to allow kids but other stuff kid really wanted like a shabbos coat when she was 7 & mom couldn't afford it & let's say she could afford, but why should my kid have it if I didn't. Some moms will do opposite & davka get her 7 yr old a shabbos coat if she doesn't go out with friends because she didn't have one.
Maybe a different example that doesn't have to do with hashkafa or affording, but mom didn't get just because, maybe because child asked/wanted it, or maybe she didn't want to spoil her, even if it was something everyone had, and wouldn't make her feel superior to others

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