Indoctrination, Control and its Aftermath

zaq

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:29 pm

crust wrote:

Ok, really this is only one aspect of Indoctrination.
There's so much more to it. I am touching the tip of the iceberg.

I invite you to share anything on this topic.

People can in fact be persuaded (a more neutral term than 'indoctrinated') through fear. Hostages who are held long enough can eventually start to identify with and even support their captors. Not because their captors' arguments are so cogent, but because their minds can resist only so long before they surrender.

amother

Floralwhite

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:29 pm

The same reality as when Mom says no ball playing in the living room, and the minute she turns her back, they're playing ball again in the living room.

crust

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:31 pm

nchr wrote:

In what reality is it ok for a mother to say no jumping on the bed, yet the offense is repeated weekly?

In the reality where children are not wax in a museum.

In what reality do children do what they are told the first time around and never fall back?

Maybe in the Church where they torture for every minor behavior. (And that's also the way Cantonists schools were set up.)

Maybe it also depends if someone has very flat children?

I can't see a real smart, undamaged child, behaving like a model from ever till ever.

Last edited by crust on Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

nchr

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:32 pm

amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:

The same reality as when Mom says no ball playing in the living room, and the minute she turns her back, they're playing ball again in the living room.

So in a reality where derech eretz doesn't exist?

nchr

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:33 pm

crust wrote:

I'm not saying you never need to repeat yourself, but not on a weekly basis. That just does not seem normal in my experience having my own children and coming from a large family with many children. Neither does children playing ball right after the mother turns around. And in what reality would the mother, at minimum, not confiscate all balls at that point?

ChassidishMommy

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:36 pm

nchr wrote:

If behaving in class was not age appropriate, then kids wouldn't be in school. At a certain age, certain behaviors have been met. I don't understand. Just like it's not appropriate for an adult to tantrum or have a pacifier, it's not appropriate for a 9 year old to jump around in class.

It's also age-appropriate for a housewife to cook a filling supper every day, have laundry washed and folded in time, and keep the house neat and clean. If it weren't age-appropriate then we wouldn't be running a home.
Yet... am I the only mother who doesn't get it right all the time? Well then, I guess my kids take after me Confused

keym

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:38 pm

nchr wrote:

So in a reality where derech eretz doesn't exist?

No. A reality where children are not robots. Are not perfect. Mess up and keep on trying.
Because if they were perfect and obeyed always, children would be born independent.

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:39 pm

I seatbelt myself for my safety, not because I am afraid of the police & tell my kids the same

ExtraCredit

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:39 pm

dankbar wrote:

What a pair! Imagine zehava being a guest in nchr's home

Zehava should invite nchr though. And her kids.

ChassidishMommy

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:40 pm

keym wrote:

No. A reality where children are not robots. Are not perfect. Mess up and keep on trying.
Because if they were perfect and obeyed always, children would be born independent.

If they were perfect they wouldn't be born at all.
Independent adults aren't perfect either.

crust

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:41 pm

This is the reason I am very very careful with creating rules is because unecassary laws weaken the necessary laws.

Once its a rule it becomes chutzpah when not adhered to.

As long as it's not a rule, it's ok.

We also have that in the Torah

אין גוזרין גזירה על הציבור אלא אם כן רוב הציבור יכולין לעמוד בה

Meaning, if you don't have very platchige kids then they most certainly won't be very good with tons of rules.

The basics like hygiene, academics and no bullying are usually more than enough for a child with a stronger character.

Zehava

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:42 pm

nchr wrote:

On a chaise or ottoman maybe, but not a couch. I guess that's why my children wouldn't jump on a couch since their feet are not placed on it. But I guess if that's cozy for you, more power to you.

What’s a chaise or ottoman Scratching Head

and how does it differ from a couch? Am I missing some basic education here? My kids put their feet on chairs also.

ExtraCredit

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:44 pm

Zehava wrote:

What’s a chaise or ottoman Scratching Head

and how does it differ from a couch? Am I missing some basic education here? My kids put their feet on chairs also.

Yes, you are missing the “Couch Etiquette“ book, page 148.

Zehava

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:46 pm

dankbar wrote:

What a pair! Imagine zehava being a guest in nchr's home

I’d much rather host her and have my kids teach hers a thing or two. Like the joys of couch-jusmping.

ExtraCredit

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:47 pm

This thread just reinforces what I already know and always try to practice. Be nice to all kids you ever meet. Whether a teacher to her students or a cashier to kid customers. You never know what they go through at home. Many of them are suffering terribly even if they look perfect.

Zehava

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:47 pm

ExtraCredit wrote:

Yes, you are missing the “Couch Etiquette“ book, page 148.

Please enlighten me I feel so left out

ChassidishMommy

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:47 pm

nchr wrote:

I don't love the idea of jumping around in general, but in my comment I was referring to when in class with a teacher who is not strict, as another poster pointed out she believes children will misbehave for lenient teachers. I do not think they will, unless something is developmentally wrong or they have an underlying condition, which is ok. Otherwise, for a typical kid, misbehavior is a reflection of the parents IMO.

My grandfather A"H used to say, "in Aushvitz is yeder geven voil." (In Aushwitz everyone was well-behaved.)

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:48 pm

Ottoman is a little square standing or rocking stool with cushion specifically to put feet on off the couch. It's fir the intended purpose, when you don't have wear to place your feet because it can't go onto couch but you are not si comfortable when it's dangling to the floor

ExtraCredit

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:50 pm

ChassidishMommy wrote:

My grandfather A"H used to say, "in Aushvitz is yeder geven voil." (In Aushwitz everyone was well-behaved.)

Exactly