How do you pronounce יששכר? I'm confused how to

amother

Amethyst

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 9:18 am

I'm sorry tweety1 but it is one name.
I spoke to my father who is a gadol he said it's one name. It's like in Yiddish yehuda is spelled with an alef but is the same name. He even gave me the raya from the Belza rabbi. He said many chasiddim spell it with one sin as it is pronounced (like a yiddish version of spelling) but in the kesuba it is spelled with two sin. Any mesader kedushin will make sure it is spelled with 2 sin on the kesuba.
Go ask a dayan not a relative and see what the answer is.

amother

Violet

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 9:41 am

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

I agree.
I asked a relative, who is a rav and does siddur kiddushins. The first thing he said was, how is it spelled on the kesuba?

tweety1

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 9:56 am

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

Your father may be gadol from here till tomorrow. He's not the only gadol around. How do you know who I asked. Maybe the elders I asked are gadolim too?!
Sorry but not sorry. It's 2 different names. Nobody will convince me otherwise. You can say and think and feel whatever you like.
One is ya-sus-cher and the other is ya-soo-cher in chasidish language. 2 different spellings 2 different pronounciations. You have a problem that there's some info you never heard of? Can't help you. I never either heard of some things doesn't mean it's not true.

amother

Amethyst

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 10:39 am

tweety1 wrote:

The difference is that Yesusschar is given alone while Yesucher is never given alone. It's either given with Dov, Ber, or Berish.

Ask them how it is spelled on their kesuba.

And face facts there is a good chance you are wrong. You can call your dayan and ask how yisucher is spelled on a kesuba.

amother

Cerise

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 10:58 am

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

True story:
I know someone who named her child an unusual name. I asked her where it's from. She said its a name from Tanach and she always loved it, so she wanted to name her daughter that name.

It turns out its the name of a MAN in Tanach. The parents didn't realize this and named their daughter this beautiful MAN's name, thinking its woman's name. After the baby was named, the grandfather of the baby (who happens to be a Rav ) heard what they did and he was mortified, but there was nothing he could do.

Her parents now know they made this mistake but try to cover it up by saying there is another female in Tanach with the same name. (There isn't).

So this girl grew up with a male name. After 120, her descendants will want to name after her and they will insist that this name can be a female name as well as a male name. After all their Bubby had this name .All based on a mistake/ignorance.

(It was not one of those names like Yona or Simcha, names that are found by both men and women. Nor was it feminized like people sometimes do. It was a legit male name from Tanach.)

I know this person (or at least someone with the same story)
they are syrian and the english pronunciation of the name is a common english name in the syrian community. they just wanted it to be hebrew too
correct me if I am talking about someone else

amother

Violet

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:01 am

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

I don't think its the same person. There is no English pronunciation of the name. Scratching Head

Which sefer is the name from?
EtA: the wife is Sefardi from home iirc

tweety1

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:09 am

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

Ask them how it is spelled on their kesuba.

And face facts there is a good chance you are wrong. You can call your dayan and ask how yisucher is spelled on a kesuba.

In their kesubah (yes multiple) it's spelled ישכר בער. On my family tree that was drawn by a big Rav it's spelled ישכר בער. Need a picture for proof by chance too?! Lol.

amother

Violet

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:15 am

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

Ask them how it is spelled on their kesuba.

And face facts there is a good chance you are wrong. You can call your dayan and ask how yisucher is spelled on a kesuba.

This would not neccesarily prove that the name was not the same name originally.
You would need an expert in names to clarify this. There is a whole Shulchan Aruch on names and their proper spellings.

Also, from what I recall, it is a much bigger issue in gittin than in kesubos. I could be wrong, but a marriage is not invalid if a name was misspelled. But a get is.

miami85

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:20 am

I didnt go through all of the responses so forgive me for being redundant, but I hadn't seen this answer yet

In the name there are 2-"sins" ( my keyboard doesn't have Hebrew). One has a dagesh, which some grammatists interpret to sound like a double letter. So since there are 2 and one has a dagesh there are those who interpret this to mean that the two letters should be pronounced differently, hence "yissaschar" but there are those who say that like in the name "hillel" the letter is just regular.

amother

Violet

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:30 am

tweety1 wrote:

Clearly in your family they are considered two different names. They are spelled and pronounced differently, hence, two completely separate names.

What I, and others are saying, is that both names derived from the one Yissachar- from the Torah. Yissachar ben Yaakov.

tweety1

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:42 am

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

That my be. "Olive" said the same. But now, where we are today, in our era, not in the shvatims times, it's considered 2 separate names in some families. And to say that it can't be, that's the attitude I can't stand. Just because you never heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

nchr

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:47 am

tweety1 wrote:

Right. But some ppl don't give Yiddish names so they'll give Dov by the bris. But some ppl do give Yisucher Ber as apposed to Yisucher Dov. I know this for a fact. Will not go into detail here it's a long conversation on it's own and involves giving out more information than I'm ready.

Yes, some people also say Ber at the bris, but I was saying Ber is never alone so it could be. So it could be ישכר בער or דוב or דוב בער or ישכר דוב or even ישכר דוב בער that is given at the bris but not just בער

amother

Violet

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:50 am

tweety1 wrote:

So then there is no point of contention. Both sides can agree that they are, in essense, one name.
Over the years, the name may have morphed into two separate names in your family/community.
The end.

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 11:53 am

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

It doesn't matter how a name is spelled on the kesuba, only on a get and some people argue the matzeiva. The Belzer Rebbe is spelled with one on the matzeiva. And no one spells the name yehuda with an alef only the nickname yuda/yida but that's a nickname

http://kevarim.com/rebbe-dovid-rokeach/

tweety1

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:03 pm

nchr wrote:

Yea this I know.

amother

Indigo

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:32 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

I'll be back to say on my relatives kesuba its spelled ישכר. (Not chasidish if that makes any difference)

tweety1

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 12:42 pm

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

I'll be back to say on my relatives kesuba its spelled ישכר. (Not chasidish if that makes any difference)

To me it actually does but it doesn't. I thought it's a chasidish thing this spelling. It's interesting to hear that it's not. I love learning.

amother

Gray

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 1:05 pm

tweety1 wrote:

If your komatz says oooh than why do you pronounce יששכר as yisuschar, you should say yisooschar?

amother

Violet

Fri, Apr 02 2021, 1:39 pm

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

If your komatz says oooh than why do you pronounce יששכר as yisuschar, you should say yisooschar?

In chassidish hav'arah, a kamatz under a letter is pronounced "uh" if the next letter has a shva under it. Just like the non-chassidish hav'ara would be in this case.
Another example would be "Dan" (the name.)
It has a kamatz under the daled. Its pronounce "Duhn", not "Doon. "
Asher, has a kametz under the aleph but that would be pronounced "Ooo"

ETA: the nun by Dan doesnt actually have a shva. Words with a shva at the end are also pronounce "uh". Like Gad and Mishpat.
But its by a word like "ma'lah"
and "rachba" which have a kamatz followed by a shva nach, those are pronounced the same in both hav'aras.