The justification of hitting

amother

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 2:31 pm

My father potched us growing up as a means of chinuch. It was never done maliciously or out of anger. He’s a BT and believed that hitting wasn’t only ok, but rather an important tool in raising children. As an adult I’ve had convos with him about it. We debated and he won’t relent. He says that it’s brought down that one should even hit their child that doesn’t misbehave. Hitting once in a while just stam is good for the child. He is a BIG fan of rav Avigdor Miller who, in my opinion, is controversial and not my style.

I’m not confused about hitting. I believe it’s wrong and causes much damage. (It’s caused me damage even though it wasn’t out of anger). However, I’m confused about the hashkafik standpoint that some people have, including my father. How can gedolim say to hit when the studies show how detrimental it is?

I have a relative who was hit growing up, and she continues to hit her children because she believes in it. She’s a young mom with young kids and doesn’t live under a rock. Yet she believes hitting is a great parenting tool.

So can someone help me understand why or how hitting is encouraged by those seemingly wiser? By the Torah?

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 2:58 pm

People are different in our generation. In the past, hitting may have worked well which is why gedolim were okay with it as a parenting method. Today though, you’re asking for your kids to end up dysfunctional if you hit them.

amother

Oleander

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 2:58 pm

amother OP wrote:

So you’re saying it’s not true?

There are sources that say that one that raises a hand on another Jew is a Rasha. There are sources that say that Choshech Shivto is a metaphor and not literal.
There are sources that say it is literal.
People take their actions and justify it with Torah.

Chayalle

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:00 pm

I think there are different chinuch methods - not just one. Chanoch L'naar Al Pi Darko shows us that there is more than one method.
And there may be methods that work for some kids and not for others. And for some generations and not so much for others.
And there are bad methods, good methods, and preferrable methods.
And I believe that in this generation not hitting is a preferrable method. There are Gedolim that back up this approach, including R' Yaakov Kaminetsky z'l, and Y'bl R' Mattisyahu Salamon shlita.

As against hitting as I am (and I'm not talking about beating a kid up), I am even more against a lack of chinuch. So I will say that there are worse chinuch methods than hitting. L'havdil to quote JK Rowling, Dudley was also abused by his parents, not just Harry.

Last edited by Chayalle on Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:07 pm; edited 2 times in total

amother

Burlywood

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:01 pm

Rabbi Avigdor Miller should not be the reason behind any chinuch decision. He has ruined many lives. If you didn't daven in his shul while he was the Rav, you have no idea of the fallout from his ideas and beliefs.

Aurora

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:03 pm

Perhaps gedolim of the past lived in a different world. They certainly practiced medicine as best as they could. They did the best they could with what they knew. But I think they would prefer all the medical technology and advances of today. I was just reading some of Rav Saadiah Gaon who was talking about how the sun and all the cosmos rotate around the earth - when we know today that is certainly not the case.

So too with hitting. Perhaps once it served a purpose. But today? No.

amother

Daylily

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:07 pm

Ima Burlywood I don’t want to quote you but I think you stepped out of line there. While we don’t personally necessarily follow said Gadol’s views your statement is a Bizayon of a Talmid Chochom and an accepted Gadol. Please retract..

mushkamothers

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:11 pm

Shlomo wrote that you shouldn't spare the rod. "Spare the rod spoil the child" is based on this pasuk in mishlei. However that doesn't mean hitting, it means discipline.
To answer your question. It's not a Torah value to physically abuse your kids. Although many ffb hit and that's a generational issue, perhaps your father did it ideologically so that may be bc of his BT background where he wants to do what's frum, he thinks it's right etc.

amother

Burlywood

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:12 pm

amother Daylily wrote:

"accepted Gadol" - accepted by whom? all the ppl who listen to his lectures and have no idea of the abuse that went on in full view of the Rav? I know, I was there.

amother

Hyacinth

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:16 pm

I'm a young parent and I on very rare occasions have hit my kids. I do it only if they did something very dangerous and are laughing when I try to rebuke them. For example my daughter learned how to get herself our of a car seat and then runs around the car, after trying every other method I once hit her (not hard) while driving and she immediately stiffed up. I then explained to her that I did not mean to hurt her I just need her to understand that her safety means everything to me and I have to do something thats hard for me to help her understand that. I dont know if I'm right or wrong, I dont think there is a right or wrong. I grew up occasionally being hit our of love from one parent and out of bad habbit from another parent. I understand the difference, I understand how its perceived differently by a child. I think when used correctly and with no other choice a child can understand that its coming from a place of love, if in fact it is.

BrisketBoss

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:20 pm

amother Hyacinth wrote:

Ridiculous. I'm not going to condemn you but there's ALWAYS another choice.

amother

Daylily

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:27 pm

I very rarely hit but I think the anti spanking camp has gone overboard as well. I’ve seen mothers yell and verbally shame and degrade their kids which is more abusive and can do way more damage than a quick slap when needed. I know there are other options but realistically speaking many parents that aren’t spanking are being verbally abusive.

tichellady

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:29 pm

we are all human and not perfect, even gedolim. we are all products of our society and time and see things through that lens. you can know what’s right for your family with all the parenting resources we have available today. it also depends what you value and what your goal is. I care about my relationship with my child and my child feeling secure and safe than whether he or she is a rule follower and listens to my every command

BrisketBoss

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:30 pm

amother Daylily wrote:

I mean, I think that's true. The non physical can be just as bad or worse, depending. I do not, of course, agree with your phrase 'when needed' because I don't think that exists.

amother

Topaz

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:30 pm

I am very against hitting yet I still think there may be a place for it to prevent a child from life threatening behavior like if a child runs into a road.
My son's Rebbe asked the class last year if there are any kids who's parents never hit them - he said 2 kids raised their hands - him and one other boy. There were probably about 18 kids in the class. That's pretty sad but I know many of these families and I don't think any of their parents are abusive. Some may be a little "old fashioned" in their parenting.

amother

Maroon

Tue, Sep 20 2022, 3:42 pm

I have a child who at times doesn’t listen and acts extremely wild. There were many times that I was on the brink of hitting him - just to get him to stop what he was doing and behave. But I always control myself because I don’t want him to see that the way to react when you’re frustrated or not being listened to is to hit.
I pray every day that I shouldn’t come to hit him.