No Money! | Imamother

amother

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 9:16 pm

Quote:

The first thing I'd tell the OP to do is cut all meat out of her and her family's diet. I'd tell her to turn down the thermostat to 58 degrees and start wearing sweaters inside. I'd tell her to put her kids in public school. I'd tell her that either she or her husband should take on a part time job.

OP Here, your kidding right? Or are you saying that I should let my baby sleep in 3 layers and be cold at night? Would you put your kid in a public school??

Forget about the meat, since we dont eat that during the week but to go to the extreme I think your a bit overdoing it. And we both work as long and as hard as we can.

amother

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 9:18 pm

avigailmiriam wrote:

amother wrote:

avigailmiriam wrote:

Honestly, I don't know what I'd do if my financial situation was dire. But even if I did lie about my income, it would still be wrong.

The first thing I'd tell the OP to do is cut all meat out of her and her family's diet. I'd tell her to turn down the thermostat to 58 degrees and start wearing sweaters inside. I'd tell her to put her kids in public school. I'd tell her that either she or her husband should take on a part time job.

you'd put your kids in public school before you lied on your tax returns? really?
I'm not asking 'theoretically, is it okay to pay yeshiva tuition with money you didn't pay taxes on'- I'm asking, for real???
if you say yes... I don't believe you.

Yes. What kind of chinuch is it to teach your children to lie and steal?

It's not good chinuch at all.
Most of the public schools today provide chinuch that is even worse.

This is a complex issue and you are giving very simplistic answers. I agree with you, cheating the system is wrong. It will eventually make you comfortable with being a cheater. It's krum, plain and simple.
But if you don't admit that reality is not black and white, then you are not in touch with reality.

avigailmiriam

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 9:21 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

*shrugs* I grew up in a house without heat on the second floor. Sleeping with three layers will keep your child warm. At the very least, you can turn the thermostat down to 61 when you're in the house and 58 when you and your husband are at work.

And yes, I'd send my child to public school. Desperate times and all that.

You have to increase your income or decrease your expenditures. That is how I would do it.

avigailmiriam

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 9:22 pm

amother wrote:

avigailmiriam wrote:

amother wrote:

avigailmiriam wrote:

Yes. What kind of chinuch is it to teach your children to lie and steal?

Reality isn't black and white. This what I would do. If you don't like the suggestions, come up with another solution.

amother

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 9:27 pm

OP: Sometimes I think we would be better of if I didnt work, because then we would fit into the system to apply and get all the help that is out there.

If the system in this country would be fair as in black and white then I can understand your suggestions, however if you fit into the middle class then you can understand that the system (taxes and all) do not make sense at all. They basically force you to "do something" in order to survive.

amother

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 9:37 pm

Well, if staying home would put you legally into the category that allows you to get government help... I say go for it. it's better then cheating on your taxes- perfectly legal, after all. there is help available, and there is nothing wrong with taking advantage of it if you can do so in a legal way.
will staying home really enable you to get on all of the programs? what about your savings?
I still think you should talk to a rav- there have to be others in your community who are in similar situations, and he should be able to give you an eitzah.

amother

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 9:42 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

will staying home really enable you to get on all of the programs? what about your savings?
I still think you should talk to a rav- there have to be others in your community who are in similar situations, and he should be able to give you an eitzah.

I think it will, and oh btw no savings anymore we used to have that, not anymore Sad

Then go for it. Call one of the organizations that help people apply for all the programs- I don't know exactly, but COJO? Nachas Healthnet? Any other suggestions? Come on, this is where Imamother can come in handy- where do you go for help navigating the system?

Everyone says that once you get on the programs it's almost impossible to wean yourself off. But I believe that you are entitled to governmental assistance just as much as the next person, as long as you are doing everything aboveboard. Sometimes people need a little help.

Good luck, OP.

amother

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 10:22 pm

avigailmiriam wrote:

amother wrote:

Quote:

All I have to say on this matter is that she is not teaching her children bad chinuch in AANYYY way by making their life livable... Shes not saying - oh mommys gonna do yada yada so we can get government hellp...!!! I think your idea is WAY overboard....

Crayon210

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 10:24 pm

amother wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

amother wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

As long as it's honest and legal, I don't see what the problem is.

Well, define 'honest and legal.'

Reporting all your income and assets in an honest fashion (I.e., not getting your paycheck in cash, etc.)

I assume you are aware that entire communities are 'working the system' in exactly this fashion...
your uncompromising honesty is admirable. or else you are in an ivory tower. both, probably.

in any case, I admire your willingness to post what you believe in under your own name.
as for me, the older I get, the less certain I get about almost everything to do with this topic.

I am aware that there are people who do the wrong thing. So? That doesn't make it right.

I find it laughable that you think I'm in an ivory tower. It's kinda dumb when people make assumptions about people they don't know a thing about.

I can't say I admire you for anything you've written, as you made an ignorant assumption about me anonymously, for absolutely no reason. Rolling Eyes

Crayon210

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 10:29 pm

I don't think there's anything wrong with leaving your job if you'll make more money (I.e., benefits) by staying at home.

I think it's horrific chinuch to lie about your income, even if your kids never officially know. It all filters down to them, and they won't miss a thing.

I don't think that most people are actually in a position where they have to choose between yeshiva tuition and lying. I think more people have more luxuries than they're willing to admit, even to themselves.

Tamiri

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 11:05 pm

amother wrote:

Quote:

Of course that is what you should do. Bundle that baby up, have a few kids sleeping in the same room - what's the problem? You think Little House on the Prairie had a thermostat? It's what my DH and I did as students in cold Pittsburgh, PA when we had no money and weren't about to steal to get it. Our thermostat was at 58. We covered the windows in plastic. And we wore warm clothes in the house. For the baby we would have a small electric radiator in the area where the baby was.
Why is thinking about gnaiva (it's not "shtick, as one poster wrote, but outright stealing) okay? It means you are taking something illegally. Just because other people do it, doesn't make it right.
Public school thoughts SHOULD come before thoughts of ganiva. After all, if you are thinking about stealing, you don't quite need that extra chinuch of a Jewish school, do you?

Tamiri

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 11:07 pm

GAMZu wrote:

I would a million times faster homeschool my kids than send them to PS!!!
Honestly, would you leave your kids in the care and company of non jews, not knowing what they are eating, what they are learning, picking up from other kids... I could never bring my child to a PS and leave him there. Ever.

Why would they need non jews to learn bad things from? Read this thread: Jewish ganavim and those considering it. You don't need to stray to far to find bad!

avigailmiriam

Sun, Nov 09 2008, 11:37 pm

Tamiri wrote:

amother wrote:

Quote:

Honestly, 58 degrees really isn't that bad. If your baby grows up with it that way, they'll never know the difference; my brother and I never did. We slept under tons of blankets with heavy drapes over the curtains. We wore gloves, and socks in the house. I had a cat sleeping in my bed which helped. I moved into that house when I was 5, my brother has lived there since infancy. Your baby will be find. Dress the kid warmly, sleep in one room, you'll be fine.

You have to cut expenses or increase your income. Lowering your heating bill will free up money for other things, maybe even help make Jewish school more affordable.

Crayon210

Mon, Nov 10 2008, 12:01 am

gold21 wrote:

Sorry but that's rather interesting to state that you would put your kid in public school (where he would learn all kinds of bad middos, and you know it) rather than teach him the one bad middah of lying.

That is just ridiculous.

Op, do what you gotta do to survive. Don't listen to unrealistic , unfair, holier-than-thou, I-am-a-tzaddekes-and-you-are-not advice.

There is a middle ground between public school and stealing.

You don't need to choose between aveiros. You find the way to do the right thing. Hashem does not force us to choose between two wrong things.

avigailmiriam

Mon, Nov 10 2008, 12:07 am

gold21 wrote:

I went to public school. Shockingly, the people I met were largely kind, friendly and upright sorts of people. And I ate the kosher food my parents packed. (I'm BT, my parents were traditional, but they managed to keep my head screwed on just fine while I was in public school.) Public schools are not the festering cesspools on iniquity some people believe they are.

You're talking about a situation where a child would still be living in a frum home in an Orthodox Jewish community. As a short term solution? Why not? With the money saved, the parents would probably still have enough to pay for after-school Jewish education for their kids and still come out ahead.

Sorry, I believe that teaching a child to go through life lying and stealing is wrong. I believe it teaches children that Jews don't have to behave in an appropriate manner. That it is best to steal from non jews to subsidize a financially iresponsible lifestyle. I want to raise children who know how to live within their means and will make the sacrifices necessary to do so.

I never said I was a tzadekess. There are, however, lines I will not cross. Lying to receive government benefits while I'm still spending money on luxuries is one of them.

avigailmiriam

Mon, Nov 10 2008, 12:08 am

Crayon210 wrote:

gold21 wrote:

Public school is an aviera now? I thought the mitzva was to chinuch, not day school.