Just witnessed the most horrible sight!

amother

Blush

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 5:44 am

As someone who has done it, or very close to it, it is 100% terrible parenting.

The question is "is it so abusive as to warrant me involving the authorities or not"?

It's hard to know. As I said, had someone called CPS on me, they would have made things much worse. Yes, the abusive behavior would have promptly stopped. But it would have utterly destroyed me. I don't think I would have ever recovered, that our marriage would have survived.

On the other hand, to remain silent when a child is suffering is unspeakably callous.

ora_43

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 5:53 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

Does that make it actionable and justify calling the police? That's the harder call to make. That's why I suggest putting a good book and a note on her doorstep. Hopefully she'll read the book, and find better ways to cope with her lack of parenting skill.

But what justifies calling CPS (not the police) is not the question of whether or not we can imagine reasons she might not be a terrible person. It's the question of whether or not she's abusive. A parent who is abusing a child because they don't know how to deal with the child's bad behavior is every bit as much in need of intervention as a parent who's abusing a perfectly well-behaved child.

Quote:

Of course if it happens again, I would call the authorities, but I think the mom should have fair warning to improve herself first.

And how do you propose figuring out whether or not the mother has improved herself? Is she going to let you into her house to check? Let you talk to her child? Do you have the professional training to see the signs of abuse that she might be trying to hide?

ora_43

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 6:06 am

Nobody is saying, drag the mother off to the gulag.

But if OP wants to help the kid she needs to at a minimum figure out who the kid is, be in contact with people who know the family (rabbi, teacher, etc), and find some way to keep tabs on the family in a real, ongoing way.

I think maybe some posters are unaware of the wide variety of interventions CPS offers. It's not just, either nobody does anything, or CPS comes and drags the kid out of the home. Depending where you live, obviously, there's a range of options that includes the child + family being offered family therapy, the child getting special after-school care for kids at risk, and more. At least check in with an expert to see what the options are, before assuming that telling CPS or the kid's school what's going on would mean a criminal investigation.

ora_43

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 6:07 am

amother [ Blush ] wrote:

You have to remember that in America, CPS isn't a kind but firm nanny or Rebbetzin stepping in to teach you better parenting. They are officials who will take your kids away unless they are 100% convinced of their safety, and then make you fight to get them back.

The only people I've known who actually lost kids in the US were severely physically abusive. Of course, that's not what they tell the neighbors.

Simple1

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 7:19 am

amother [ Coffee ] wrote:

Happened to me once, I was in the bathroom, and sibling locked another one out. I came out and let the child in.

Something similar happened to us too where a sibling locked another one out. My teens were mortified that the neighbors might have heard the screaming to get back in. It is strange in this case that it was in middle of the night. Unless they were away for Shabbos and/or had a party and came home late.

Last edited by Simple1 on Sun, Dec 13 2020, 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Pearl

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 7:33 am

I don't find this story disturbing except for the no coat and the screaming waking people up. Parents send their children outside all the time. Maybe the child refused to put on a coat or maybe they had a heater on their porch?

Even if not, you don’t call CPS over this. They have more serious abuse cases to handle like parents who burn cigarettes on their children, waterboard, beat their babies, shoot bb guns into their kids, sell their kids for drugs, lock their kids in cabinets or dog kennels, and I don't think I need to continue. Please don't waste their resources or do something against halacha.

Maybe if you witnessed this every night or something then you should ask a Rav what to do.

amother

Azure

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 8:03 am

ora_43 wrote:

I'm shocked by some of the posts here, and wondering if maybe the posters skimmed and missed some very important details.

This was in the middle of the night. In December. The kid had no coat. I live in a very warm climate, and yet leaving a kid outside without a coat in the middle of the night would be dangerous even here. The kid was screaming and crying, and at that point, when the child was hysterical and freezing, someone inside turned off the light just to make the punishment that much worse.

What OP is describing is nothing like putting a misbehaving 12-year-old outside until they calm down. Nothing. It is blatantly dangerous, and blatantly abusive.

I agree and they were probably turning off the lights so that people wouldn't see that he was actually outside the house.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 8:03 am

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

Begs the question, how come just adoptive parents are required a permit for raising children? Can't stand these stories.

I hear you. I'm an adoptive mom, and we went through the wringer for MONTHS. It was extremely invasive and exhausting. You have every millimeter of your life examined.

I've also had CPS called on me, by my ex's psycho new girlfriend. (And I mean psycho. She'd been institutionalized several times, and was not compliant with her medication. She was super attention seeking, and jealous of DD's visitation time with her dad.)

CPS experiences range across the board. There are good and bad case workers. People who have been on the job way too long and are burned out, and people who are new to the job and unsure what to do. There are agencies that want to fill a quota, and agencies that are so overburdened that kids at real risk fall through the cracks.

B'H, my case worker was a lovely young woman. She was kind and gentle, I was open and honest. I gave her free run of the house, and she got to talk to DD in private. DD told her that there was never anything good to eat - and I showed the case worker a full refrigerator and pantry, as well as a fully stocked freezer. What 6yo, picky princess DD really meant, was "There's never anything I am in the mood to eat, and all I want is pizza and nosh!"

B'H, DD had also just had a well child checkup a week earlier, and I was able to provide medical records and her vaccine schedule.

The case worker apologized for bothering me. I told her "Oh no, I'm glad you came. Better to bother me, than to have a real case not get checked out. I can imagine that you see the worst of the worst, and I could never do your job. You are amazing."

She almost started to cry! She looked like she wanted to give me a big hug. She came back two weeks later, just to say "hi" to DD, and seal her report.

I know that not every case worker is like that, and that Hashem blessed me with this one. Not everyone who goes into that field is evil - but the evil they do see all day can wear down their souls.

amother

Gray

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 8:03 am

I have neighbors, incredible parents, never heard them raise their voice.
BUT; their boys are WILD! They bang their doors on a nearly daily basis so loud, the whole house literally shakes. And they love to lock their younger sibling out on the porch. The resulting banging and screaming is loud enough to wake the dead ( unfortunately it wakes me too) . Very often I had to go knock on their front door to let the mother know what went on, and she thanked me every time, because she was busy and didnt hear what went on.
So these parents are not abusive ( maybe not protective enough), although their kids certainly are.
Just saying, there might be something else going on.

amother

Wheat

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 8:16 am

I know someone who has a son that was super difficult as a child. He had no control of his emotions, and the slightest thing would set him off. The mother was following a lot of (good) parenting advice really well, and let him know matter of factly that every time he flew off the handle, he'd have to quickly step out of the house until he could calm down, because "we dont scream inside the house".

Every time he lost it, she calmly opened the porch door, gently put him out, and said softly "try to calm down quickly, cant wait for you to come back in".
The door was not locked, and he knew that, but it was up to him to calm down and step back in.
Some times it took him a few minutes of crying before he'd come back. I asked her once if she didnt care what it looked like from the outside, and she said "what am I supposed to do? This is working for him". She said hes even gone out when there was snow on the ground, refusing a coat. She gave him one, but he threw it on the floor. But nicely stepped on the porch, because he knew the routine, calmed himself down, and let himself back in after a minute.

This was a bunch of years ago. Hes grown up into a very fine mentch, and they no longer need to do this so I know it cant be them, but I really thought of her when you said this...you really never know the whole story.

ora_43

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 8:23 am

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

A 6-year-old. At 1:30 in the morning. Shivering from cold and crying. In the dark.

Abusive parents do **** like that all the time. Normal parents do not.

amother

Burlywood

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 8:27 am

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

Really now. You heard and she did not. That naive I'm not.

amother

Pearl

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 8:32 am

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

A neighbor could hear but parents in the same house could not? Sounds like she knew but pretended not to out of embarrassment.