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Why are we against gay marriage?
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Tzippora









  


Post  Fri, May 27 2011, 7:58 am
Ruchel wrote:
Yup southernshalom...

I would be interested in any Orthodox source, even lightest MO as long as it is not a rabbi rejected by other MO rabbis, saying it is fine for a chaste gay couple to be in a marriage, given all the sources against the concept of same sx marriage.


There is a difference between allowing it from a halachic perspective and opposing it from a political perspective. See the article I posted last night, which was written by an MO (but not light MO!) rabbi.
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SouthernShalom









  


Post  Fri, May 27 2011, 9:14 am
My point was that allowing it on the basis of "separation of church and state" is not a valid argument. If you were to follow that logic you would have to do away with over half of this countries laws. Actually most of our laws are based at least partly on a biblical mandate.
There are people out there who have no belief in G-d whatsoever who would argue that basic laws such as the ones for rape and murder could be thrown out on the basis of church and state. Personally I really see no difference. Torah speciffically states that homosexuallity is an abomination. How much more clear can it be. It wasn't tollerated at Sodom, and I think if you look into past societies the ones who began to allow these practices crumbled.
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Tzippora









  


Post  Fri, May 27 2011, 9:34 am
SouthernShalom wrote:
My point was that allowing it on the basis of "separation of church and state" is not a valid argument. If you were to follow that logic you would have to do away with over half of this countries laws. Actually most of our laws are based at least partly on a biblical mandate.
There are people out there who have no belief in G-d whatsoever who would argue that basic laws such as the ones for rape and murder could be thrown out on the basis of church and state. Personally I really see no difference. Torah speciffically states that homosexuallity is an abomination. How much more clear can it be. It wasn't tollerated at Sodom, and I think if you look into past societies the ones who began to allow these practices crumbled.


Typing on a phone here, so but your understanding of american law is flawed. While american law may have certain things in common with biblical law , any law in the us must have a secular rationale in order for it to be constitutional. Things like rape or murder or assault, while covered in the bible, do not require one to resort to biblical or religious reasons to justify their being outlawed. However, same secks marriage does not fall into this bucket - nor, for that matter, does gay zexual activity, which used to be illegal until laws prohibiting it were ruled unconstitutional.
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Peanut2









  


Post  Fri, May 27 2011, 9:44 am
SouthernShalom wrote:
My point was that allowing it on the basis of "separation of church and state" is not a valid argument. If you were to follow that logic you would have to do away with over half of this countries laws. Actually most of our laws are based at least partly on a biblical mandate.
There are people out there who have no belief in G-d whatsoever who would argue that basic laws such as the ones for rape and murder could be thrown out on the basis of church and state. Personally I really see no difference. Torah speciffically states that homosexuallity is an abomination. How much more clear can it be. It wasn't tollerated at Sodom, and I think if you look into past societies the ones who began to allow these practices crumbled.


Our laws are not necessarily based on biblical mandate. And atheists do not argue that basic laws, like the ones for rape and murder, should be thrown out. Where on earth are you getting this from???

Can you not think of a single reason for why murder should be forbidden, except for because it's in the Torah? Seriously? Because if so you're just strengthening the case for atheists and agnostics everywhere, that religious people are completely irrational.

This country does "follow the logic" of separation of church and state, and yet laws are not being thrown out.
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SouthernShalom









  


Post  Fri, May 27 2011, 10:09 am
Sure, I can think of some reasons,but are you saying that societies everywhere are perfectly capeable of governing themselves devoid of biblical laws? Why did G-d feel it necessary to mandate them then? I know perfectly "moral" athiests and agnostics but lets face it they live in a world where "morality" is the norm.
Can you not look at some of the biblical societies that went awry and see that when the opposite becomes the norm societies crumble and that murder, rape etc. became rampant?
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Peanut2









  


Post  Fri, May 27 2011, 10:22 am
SouthernShalom wrote:
Sure, I can think of some reasons,but are you saying that societies everywhere are perfectly capeable of governing themselves devoid of biblical laws? Why did G-d feel it necessary to mandate them then? I know perfectly "moral" athiests and agnostics but lets face it they live in a world where "morality" is the norm.
Can you not look at some of the biblical societies that went awry and see that when the opposite becomes the norm societies crumble and that murder, rape etc. became rampant?


No more and no less than societies that believe in G-d. For both questions.

I've never thought of it before, but yes, I think gov'ts and countries can and do function without "Biblical Law". In fact, since no country follows halacha at the moment, any such "biblical laws" they do follow are based on non-Jewish interpretation.

As I look at history and present times, I see plenty of societies that are based on religious law that are pretty evil, and secular governments that are pretty nice. European history is filled with religion and violence, usually hand in hand. And is it better to live in America with its separation of church and state, or in Iran?
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Ruchel









  


Post  Fri, May 27 2011, 10:54 am
I dont understand voting against one's own beliefs. Where would it stop?
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Besiyata Dishmaya









  


Post  Sat, May 28 2011, 7:41 pm
Tzippora wrote:
SouthernShalom wrote:
My point was that allowing it on the basis of "separation of church and state" is not a valid argument. If you were to follow that logic you would have to do away with over half of this countries laws. Actually most of our laws are based at least partly on a biblical mandate.
There are people out there who have no belief in G-d whatsoever who would argue that basic laws such as the ones for rape and murder could be thrown out on the basis of church and state. Personally I really see no difference. Torah speciffically states that homosexuallity is an abomination. How much more clear can it be. It wasn't tollerated at Sodom, and I think if you look into past societies the ones who began to allow these practices crumbled.

Typing on a phone here, so but your understanding of american law is flawed. While american law may have certain things in common with biblical law , any law in the us must have a secular rationale in order for it to be constitutional. Things like rape or murder or assault, while covered in the bible, do not require one to resort to biblical or religious reasons to justify their being outlawed. However, same secks marriage does not fall into this bucket - nor, for that matter, does gay zexual activity, which used to be illegal until laws prohibiting it were ruled unconstitutional.

So why is incest still illegal? If it's Biblical, gay should fall in the same category and if American laws are only bein odom lechaveiro, then incest belongs in that category.

SouthernShalom said it well: "When you undo one of them they all begin to crumble."
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Tzippora









  


Post  Sat, May 28 2011, 9:25 pm
Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:
Tzippora wrote:
SouthernShalom wrote:
My point was that allowing it on the basis of "separation of church and state" is not a valid argument. If you were to follow that logic you would have to do away with over half of this countries laws. Actually most of our laws are based at least partly on a biblical mandate.
There are people out there who have no belief in G-d whatsoever who would argue that basic laws such as the ones for rape and murder could be thrown out on the basis of church and state. Personally I really see no difference. Torah speciffically states that homosexuallity is an abomination. How much more clear can it be. It wasn't tollerated at Sodom, and I think if you look into past societies the ones who began to allow these practices crumbled.

Typing on a phone here, so but your understanding of american law is flawed. While american law may have certain things in common with biblical law , any law in the us must have a secular rationale in order for it to be constitutional. Things like rape or murder or assault, while covered in the bible, do not require one to resort to biblical or religious reasons to justify their being outlawed. However, same secks marriage does not fall into this bucket - nor, for that matter, does gay zexual activity, which used to be illegal until laws prohibiting it were ruled unconstitutional.

So why is incest still illegal? If it's Biblical, gay should fall in the same category and if American laws are only bein odom lechaveiro, then incest belongs in that category.

SouthernShalom said it well: "When you undo one of them they all begin to crumble."


Incest is likely illegal because of 1 - Habit and social taboo, which is different than saying it's for a biblical reason, and 2 - because it is in society's interest not to have children with the types of genetic issues prevalent among children of incest and 3 - because it is in society's interest not to permit the types of power issues that OFTEN but not always exist in incestuous relationships.

Is it a perfect reasoning? No. And if it were challenged in court it might not stand up for that very reason. But it does not and cannot rely on biblical law - there must be a secular rationale behind the law. What is your point?
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Peanut2









  


Post  Sat, May 28 2011, 10:14 pm
The laws that prohibit incest are NOT the same as Biblical laws. There are clear laws that are stated in the Torah that are NOT laws, and there are laws that are not stated in the Torah that do exist.
For example, cousins are often forbidden to marry according to secular law, but that is not forbidden in the Torah.
Secular law allows men to marry their father's (ex) wives, but the Torah prohibits it.
And for an uncle to marry his niece is a good Torah thing to do, but I have suspicions that it just may be forbidden but secular laws.

The modern definition of incest is not based on the Bible and its definition.
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Besiyata Dishmaya









  


Post  Sun, May 29 2011, 2:50 pm
Tzippora wrote:
Incest is likely illegal because of 1 - Habit and social taboo, which is different than saying it's for a biblical reason, and 2 - because it is in society's interest not to have children with the types of genetic issues prevalent among children of incest and 3 - because it is in society's interest not to permit the types of power issues that OFTEN but not always exist in incestuous relationships.

Is it a perfect reasoning? No. And if it were challenged in court it might not stand up for that very reason. But it does not and cannot rely on biblical law - there must be a secular rationale behind the law. What is your point?

OK, so it's not biblical law, but being that these are the same reasons gays were illegal not that long ago, it's reasonable to believe that incest (sister & brother and parent & child) will be acceptable in the near future and prohibiting it will be unconstitutional. The world has lost its moral and ethical values. This is what SouthernShalom is saying.
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skazm









  


Post  Sun, May 29 2011, 2:51 pm
As far as I learned, when H decided to destroy the world in the mabul, it was because the final straw was the fact that people were making laws legitimizing relationships forbidden in Torah like man and man, man and beast, etc... check the mifarshim of that parsha
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Besiyata Dishmaya









  


Post  Sun, May 29 2011, 3:11 pm
skazm wrote:
As far as I learned, when H decided to destroy the world in the mabul, it was because the final straw was the fact that people were making laws legitimizing relationships forbidden in Torah like man and man, man and beast, etc... check the mifarshim of that parsha

Tell this to the presidents, lawmakers, governors, congressmen, mayors and other public officials of all the countries in the world. Maybe they'll wake up...
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finprof









  


Post  Mon, Jun 06 2011, 11:00 pm
I admit that I have not read all of the responses. I am responding mainly to the post title. It is my understanding that being gay isn't a choice, its just who you are. Why should we make people deny who they are? What if your child realized they were gay, would you want society to deny them the happiness and legal protections of marriage? Maybe you'll say I'm just to modern of me, but I can't help but think about it from that prospective and that's why IMHO it should be legal.
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Barbara









  


Post  Tue, Jun 07 2011, 12:47 am
Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:
Tzippora wrote:
Incest is likely illegal because of 1 - Habit and social taboo, which is different than saying it's for a biblical reason, and 2 - because it is in society's interest not to have children with the types of genetic issues prevalent among children of incest and 3 - because it is in society's interest not to permit the types of power issues that OFTEN but not always exist in incestuous relationships.

Is it a perfect reasoning? No. And if it were challenged in court it might not stand up for that very reason. But it does not and cannot rely on biblical law - there must be a secular rationale behind the law. What is your point?

OK, so it's not biblical law, but being that these are the same reasons gays were illegal not that long ago, it's reasonable to believe that incest (sister & brother and parent & child) will be acceptable in the near future and prohibiting it will be unconstitutional. The world has lost its moral and ethical values. This is what SouthernShalom is saying.


Ah, love those slippery slope arguments.

If we allow circumcision, then why don't we allow female genital mutilation? Or gender reassignment surgery for newborns whose parents would have preferred a different gender. Where does it stop?

If we allow Jewish women to enter public places with their hair covered, then we have to allow people to have their drivers' licenses photos taken with their entire faces covered. Its just a hop, skip and a jump away. Cover one thing, cover it all.

Slippery slope arguments are the last, grasping, desperate efforts of those who cannot muster up an argument against the actual practice being discussed.
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DrMom









  


Post  Tue, Jun 07 2011, 3:21 am
Barbara wrote:

Slippery slope arguments are the last, grasping, desperate efforts of those who cannot muster up an argument against the actual practice being discussed.

I disagree. Sometimes the "slippery slope" argument is a useful rhetorical tool which allows us to really analyze what we are saying and whether we are advancing our argument for the right reason. If the same reasoning can be used to justify something outrageous, then maybe we need to think about the limits on our argument, or to reframe our argument in a balanced way.
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Besiyata Dishmaya









  


Post  Mon, Jun 13 2011, 7:44 pm
Barbara wrote:
Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:
Tzippora wrote:
Incest is likely illegal because of 1 - Habit and social taboo, which is different than saying it's for a biblical reason, and 2 - because it is in society's interest not to have children with the types of genetic issues prevalent among children of incest and 3 - because it is in society's interest not to permit the types of power issues that OFTEN but not always exist in incestuous relationships.

Is it a perfect reasoning? No. And if it were challenged in court it might not stand up for that very reason. But it does not and cannot rely on biblical law - there must be a secular rationale behind the law. What is your point?

OK, so it's not biblical law, but being that these are the same reasons gays were illegal not that long ago, it's reasonable to believe that incest (sister & brother and parent & child) will be acceptable in the near future and prohibiting it will be unconstitutional. The world has lost its moral and ethical values. This is what SouthernShalom is saying.


Ah, love those slippery slope arguments.

If we allow circumcision, then why don't we allow female genital mutilation? Or gender reassignment surgery for newborns whose parents would have preferred a different gender. Where does it stop?

If we allow Jewish women to enter public places with their hair covered, then we have to allow people to have their drivers' licenses photos taken with their entire faces covered. Its just a hop, skip and a jump away. Cover one thing, cover it all.

Slippery slope arguments are the last, grasping, desperate efforts of those who cannot muster up an argument against the actual practice being discussed.

Wouldn't eating bacon be in the same discussion as eating horse meat? In my eyes and in the eyes of any yerei Shomayim, gay, incest, bestiality all fall under the same category of abominations that contaminate the land.


Last edited by Besiyata Dishmaya on Mon, Jun 13 2011, 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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summerlove









  


Post  Mon, Jun 13 2011, 7:48 pm
just look at the body and facts, its a simple jigsaw what is supposed to go where, and there's a reason why only females get pregnant, it's not supposed to be...
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