Would you use unethical methods if that was the norm

amother

Thu, Nov 10 2011, 2:39 pm

Some background information:
I live in a third world country.
The government here is not something you can explain. It has major corruption issues, and officials are always being arrested for corruption charges. To be fair, the are trying to work on it, but it doesn't really seem to be helping all that much. In every government office there are signs with numbers to call and anonymously tip off the anti-corruption squad.

I need a certain document from a government office. I applied for it the regular way, via normal channels, and I am not getting it! I go to the offices all the time, I have even been to a head office and they told me my claim has been escalated to urgent, but at the end of the day, I need this document ASAP, and I just don't think that's happening. Most people in this country, never need this document, as you only ever need it if you deal with foreign countries which most people here don't.

So my question to you all is, I really think that they only way I will get this document, is if I go into head offices here and bribe a government official. This is how you get things done in this country. Anyone I have asked (On expat forums etc, not frum Jews, as they are barely any here), when asked how they got this document told me that they bribed someone or they had connections in head offices etc... To clarify- they mean, going into a government office, speaking to someone at the desk, and giving them a few hundred dollars to print this document.
I feel really uncomfortable to do this.
But I really need this document. What would you do?

Also, whenever I go into government offices here, whoever is helpful and tries to get me the papers I need, after I finish, I always go to a street vendor outside and buy some coke or candy or chocolate and bring it to the the people who helped me, just as a personal thank you. I know how little $$ they make working for the gov't, so it's just a token gift. BUT, over time this has really helped me, because people have helped me, remember me, and when they see me again for another issue, they are willing to help me. I think this is fine, because I am not paying them to do something just thanking them. Do you think that is okay???

freidasima

Thu, Nov 10 2011, 2:51 pm

Of course you pay the bribe.
We live in this world, that's the way it is and it's not about to change. You have to take care of yourself and your needs and if this is the system by not doing it you are hurting yourself. You aren't the world's policeman, you can't change the system in this country. If it bothers you so much, MOVE. And if you can't you have to adapt in order to survive.

As for buying something for people who help you, why is that any different than my sending all my private doctors big plants or chocolate and fruit selections before Rosh Hashana every year? Or bringing big chocolate selections to the receptionists and nurses where I get medical care before RH and Pesach? Or giving my kupot cholim (HMO) doctors expensive bottles of wine before Purim and Rosh Hashana? Or people for whom I have done favors and helped them in the past sending ME such things twice a year (yes, they do and yes, I do as well)? Or Dh's former talmidim sending him things? Or his institution sending big donors big bouquets to the wives before the yomim tovim?

It's the way of the world. One catches more bees with honey than with vinegar and if you need the bees or want to show hakoras hatov (only it's like giving it in advance, no?) then by all means.

Be realistic, not moralistic. Or move.

Smiling Wife

Thu, Nov 10 2011, 3:18 pm

I grew up in that system...The only thing that I want you to be careful about is if it turns against you, ie the agent instead of taking the bribe reports you. My father did it once with a gov't worker and he got into big trouble, he did it before and didn't get into trouble on the contrary, but once it did turn against him.. If there is a way to find out if surely the person you are bribing did take bribes before then go for it. Otherwise just make sure it is not a check or something that could be used against you just hard cash... embarrassed

I moved countries, I couldn't live like that, you might need to consider seriousely the affect of such an environment on you and your family if any.
Good luck!

Fox

Thu, Nov 10 2011, 3:45 pm

freidasima wrote:

Of course you pay the bribe.

sequoia wrote:

Absolutely you should. A corrupt government is not just, you do what you have to do.

I would pay it and not think twice.

If it makes you feel better, think of it as a fee. Of course, I live in Chicago, so maybe my perspective isn't that great!

But seriously, when a government office charges a fee for a particular service or document, they're really saying, "Look, it costs us X amount to run our office, we can't get enough money from taxes, so you have to kick in a little." Now, obviously, it's better if the employees are paid adequate salaries and the fee is standardized, but in some countries -- whether because of tradition or entrenched habit or lack of administrative savvy -- that just doesn't happen. So everyone has to negotiate his/her own "fee."

But like I said, you should probably take my advice with a grain of salt. I live in a state where ex-governors have their own table in the prison cafeteria.