Spin off of 100K for shidduchim

amother

Sapphire

Fri, Dec 25 2015, 1:49 pm

How do frum people justify asking for tzedaka for down payments and other non necessities? If they ask for loans it's one thing. But tzedaka? I learned somewhere that people who take tzedaka when they don't need it, won't leave the world until they really need tzedaka or help from others. Are people ok with this thought? It's one thing to make a simple wedding and ask for tzedaka, quite another for people to expect others to finance fancy weddings, apartments, jewelry.

amother

Orange

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 2:27 pm

5mom wrote:

I know that we want to give brides what is standard in their communities. But could it be that the expected norms are not reasonable? Some of the things that "everybody gets" sound like extraordinary luxuries.

That's something their leaders have to decide. But if they can't afford whatever it is the community expects them to put forth (ridiculous or not), this girl won't get married.

As an example, dh used to give money to a man who would come to dh frequently on Thursday nights, telling him that he had no food for Shabbos. Dh would give him enough that he could have a really nice Shabbos with good chicken and everything else he would need for a family of 8 kids. At first I got annoyed because this guy truthfully is really irresponsible and that's why he could never afford Shabbos. Then I realized that whether or not this guy is a moron (he's not but say he was), these kids still need to eat. Not giving him food for Shabbos on a Thursday night is not going to teach him responsibility but it will make his kids starve.

It's the same thing here because it's one thing to disagree with the principle of it but it's another to refuse to give money to the guy at your door as a political statement. The fact is he's in the community and now he's stuck. This is the only way his daughter will get married.

amother

Seashell

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 2:37 pm

amother wrote:

What if US rabbis could decide as a group that they weren't certifying these guys to collect anymore? The ones we got all the years I was growing up (OOT) had letters from a particular prominent rav. You're right that singling out one individual would only harm them, but surely if the system were no longer fed by American funds, it might collapse sooner. If Chareidim would really rather see their son not married than married and having to rent, that's their problem.

Heyaaa

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 3:10 pm

amother wrote:

Okay, so get the US rabbis to get together to say that Americans will no longer support it. But so far no American rabbanim have even thought about this so for now I would say that refusing to give anything (unless you truly can't afford) is just being unfair to the meshulach at your door.

amother

Seashell

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 3:19 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

So my parents made one set of sheva brachot for me. We knew they couldn't afford my wedding. Dh and I paid for it entirely ourselves, out of savings. I'm sure it was smaller than most of the weddings my parents funded, because they just couldn't say no to these entitled meshulachim.

Should my parents really be funding other people's childrens' weddings when they can't fund their own? It's self-made aniyim taking from other aniyim, and don't think for a minute they'd have considered giving to us if we'd gone collecting for "hachnasas kallah" in THEIR neighborhoods.

Heyaaa

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 3:33 pm

amother wrote:

That's extremely admirable that you were realistic with what you could afford.

But why assume that they wouldn't give you money if you collected at their doors? And why assume that they made a fancy wedding. These meshulachim don't make as much as you think. I believe they have to pay their drivers a significant amount of what they earn and they can drive around for hours and not make any money and they also have to pay for plane tickets. Could be some do get rich but most don't. The only real way to get a lot of money by collecting is if you are close with wealthy people. And if you are close you don't need to go to America to schnorr door to door.

FYI I'm not chareidi and don't want to be. I Even think it's ridiculous and (censored) of these rabbanim to not think about the needs of their followers and to not be willing to open their eyes to see the failings in the system. But I do feel bad for the followers whom are in the system and they don't have options.

amother

Rose

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 3:41 pm

I give money for food, for basic shabbos meals such as chicken funds, for clothes or yomtov needs. I don't give to any chasuna collectors as I would not on principle pay for someone's down payment, given we still rent and save for our own, and I can't distinguish between what I consider reasonable and unreasonable requests. I do give time and effort, eg cooking and help prepare the chasuna for less well off local women, such as make them a sheva brachos, collect and arrange flowers, set up their hall, even take to the mikvah if there is no one else. But I won't buy someone an apartment because their derech demands that is their right. I think it is wrong for this to be a requirement to get married and causes a great deal of anguish and agmas nefesh.

Tablepoetry

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 3:56 pm

amother wrote:

It's the same thing here because it's one thing to disagree with the principle of it but it's another to refuse to give money to the guy at your door as a political statement. The fact is he's in the community and now he's stuck. This is the only way his daughter will get married.

Is there no red line? No עד כאן? If everyone in the community marries with a downpayment, pearl necklace, diamond earrings and gold watch for the chatan, then it is called tzedekah to pay for this stuff?

amother

Seashell

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 3:58 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

Maybe I'm wrong about the size of these weddings- I'd guess the costs that don't vary with size were about the same, minus the dowry. We had less than 150 people at ours, so proportional costs were low. Since we had a fair number of older individuals we felt we had to invite, the dancing was small. That's what really pains me, thinking back on my wedding- I have always loved dancing at other peoples' simchas, and I had one medium circle for most of the dancing at mine.

I know they have to pay the drivers, and airfare. That's part of why this seems so ridiculous to me- such a waste of tzedaka funds. Surely some of these people must have sons? Someone on the other thread doesn't think her inlaws were greedy at all, asking what they did for her husband. I really can't agree. I'd think a boy would be snatched up if he wasn't demanding a dowry, so the boys clearly aren't the ones with shidduch problems. A parent of boys who demands what they think they can get away with instead of what the parents of their son's beshert can afford is perpetuating the community financial crisis and is wrong.

Heyaaa

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 4:06 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

The girls in these communities generally get half a carat diamond engagement ring, if it's a real diamond at all. Maybe they get a pearl necklace but no diamond earrings and no gold watch.

Heyaaa

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 4:10 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

Even less of a reason to give. In order to pay for drivers and plane tickets????What kind of a system is this?

It's part of the expense. When you give money to any organization they pay their fundraisers and secretaries and they even usually pay for some type of coffee maker for their office. Whenever you give money to tzedaka, some of it goes to pay the random expenses that come up when raising the funds.

amother

Seashell

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 4:11 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

When you give to an organization, they have one person doing the collecting for many individuals. The overhead costs are much lower than when each person does this on his own.

Tablepoetry

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 4:13 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

The girls in these communities generally get half a carat diamond engagement ring, if it's a real diamond at all. Maybe they get a pearl necklace but no diamond earrings and no gold watch.

I know, I was just exaggerating for good measure (btw, I received no engagement ring at all, and certainly don't plan to subsidize someone else's.).

Anyway, as I said earlier (maybe on the other thread), I don't think anyone begrudges them a simple chatuna. People are just angry at the thought they are collecting not only for the wedding, but for a downpayment, or for the sum deemed necessary to marry off your daughter.

Tablepoetry

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 4:16 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

I try my best to donate either directly to those who need it, or to organizations known for their small overhead.

Here it seems as if a very high percentage of the costs is going to extra expenses.

shoshanim999

Sat, Dec 26 2015, 5:40 pm

amother wrote:

Do you personally know of someone that asked for tzedakah so they can buy jewelry, a fancy house or make a lavish wedding? I don't.