Spin off of 100K for shidduchim

Tablepoetry

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 2:27 am

notshanarishona wrote:

Do you know what the average Israeli salary is?

For someone who makes minimum wage, it's about $1000 a month if they work full time. And unfortunately , minimum wage or a few nis over minimum wage is very common because the job market is difficult.
Even someone where both parents work full time low income jobs can end up needing tzedakah in times where they need more I.e. making a chassunah or big medical expense.

First of all, minimum wage is almost 5000 NIS a month, which is more than $1000.

Second, minimum wage is really not so common. As others have said, with a bit of education/job training, one can get a better job. And there are plenty of courses/programs geared for the charedi population.

Third, more than half of Israeli charedi men don't work (54%). So we are not talking about two working parents; I assume that most of the schnorrers belong to this 54% who don't work.

Four, I think big medical expenses belong to a separate group. If it's indeed something not covered by the kuppa, then yes, money might need to be raised. Chiloni working couples do this too in such situations (however, they advertise here in Israel, in the papers, etc. Not door to door). An emergency is an emergency.

Tablepoetry

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 2:49 am

byisrael wrote:

Right and that is why my chiloni uncle is dead from a very treatable form of cancer - he waited for financial help from all the famous "amutot" that advertises in the papers ect...and died in the process. Just do me a favor and don't do that when it comes to your family.

I am very sorry about your uncle.
I wasn't talking about amutot, but about people who advertise for themselves (sometimes via an amuta).

In any case, I never said that the situation here is ideal regarding medical emergencies not covered by the kuppa. Indeed, it's far from ideal. However, that is a separate thread entirely.
The title of the thread is 100k for shidduchim, not for medical treatment.

amother

Orange

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 3:50 am

amother wrote:

Yup, we live in New York and I remember that one of my father's Israeli Shabbos guests was in the US shnorrering money so that he could afford to buy his daughter an apartment. I find it really dishonest and disgusting that these people go around collecting money from middle class - poor people for a luxury item. They want to go to some rich people and ask the rich people for donations - OK. They shouldn't come around and ring people's bells at all times of the day and night and disturb people and shnorrer(steal) money for a luxury.

How is it stealing?
How is it dishonest?

You wanna argue it's disgusting, okay I disagree but I can hear that you are disgusted. But it's not dishonest and it's not stealing.

And they come at all times of the night? Hasn't been my experience....

Amarante

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 7:59 am

Not to digress, but a cash gift in the US is the norm for relatives and since most people register, a gift from the registry for non relatives is equivalent to giving money to set up a household especially since most registries have unlimited ability to exchange.

I don't think anyone consciously thinks about covering the cost of your plate, but in my experience, wedding gifts are pretty generous in value. There are obviously circumstances in which people can't afford but under normal circumstances it would be viewed as tacky to attend the reception and not bring a relatively substantial gift. No one expects Great Aunt Tzivia who is living on Social Security to provide a big gift of course.

gold21

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 8:13 am

Heyaaa wrote:

Telling him that his daughter should marry a less yeshivish person is just setting her up for divorce. You need to marry someone who is compatible. Someone who gets your way of life and your values. It's like if your parents were trying to save money so they told you that you can only marry someone from bnei braq or Meah Shearim. I don't know you not do I know your hashkafa but I imagine you'd tell your parents nice try.

Again, complain about the leaders. The leaders tell them this way of life is the only way to get olam haba. So they don't have a choice. They could suck up the frustrating and embarrassing and even ridiculous rules of the community but believe that at least they're going to olam haba or they can leave that lifestyle and believe that they're giving up their eternity.

I think people marry partners on different hashkafic wavelengths all the time, really. I dont think its a set up for divorce at all.

Also, a "blame the leaders" mentality holds true for a cult, not for a religion. Unless it's a cult of sorts? Not familiar with it at all. So perhaps it is. In which case... if that is true.... then I certainly would not want to donate.

amother

Firebrick

Sun, Dec 27 2015, 7:17 pm

You all do realize that it is a very small percentage of chareidim who go collecting to make weddings, right? And an even smaller percentage who actually travel to do so.

I live in Beitar, which is just about as chareidi a locale as you can get, and I have never heard of anyone who has done this. I've heard of lots of people who have made weddings, though. And yes, I do knocks on my door once in a while with someone asking for a donation, but it's not that often, and not just for weddings. I'm not saying that there aren't those who do, but it is a drop in the bucket as compared to the number of chareidim out there.

There were 800,000 chareidi adults in Israel in 2011, so make whatever approximations you want to figure out how many couples marrying off children you can get from that, but whatever calculations you will make, you will still come up with those who come "schnorring" being the exception, not the norm. For example, if you want to use that number to begin with (and of course it is many more today than 4-5 years ago), say that half of them are men, and 1/3 of those men are marrying off kids, that's 133,333 men. If you say that you get 15 collectors knocking on your door (and I'm assuming that's an exaggeration), every single night that's not Shabbos or YT (304 nights per year, approx), that's 4560 men, which is 3.4% of the theoretical population. That's not the norm. And even if you want to double that number, it's still not the norm. And those numbers should make it obvious that it's not what "the leaders" are saying to do, either, certainly not for the klal.

Having been involved in raising money for a truly needy kallah to get married, I can tell you that there are many people and organizations in EY who help those who ask/need. Some of these places check into the applicants, and some give a nominal sum to all who request. I spoke to a number of (lower income) people who had married off children and to people who were involved with kallahs to try and get information, and the fact is that most people do not get significant sums to marry a couple off. Most of the help comes in the form of, this place will give you 4 towels, and this place will give you a discounted XYZ, and then there are some places that if you send a SASE, they will send you back 50 shekel or something like that. LOTS of people get married in not for profit halls, get gemach (meaning free) silk flowers for the kallah chair and tables (if the tables even have flowers, mine didn't and that was totally fine) and get the gown from a gemach (meaning, free plus dry cleaning or 50 shekel plus dry cleaning, etc.)

Why is an apartment so important? This is a cultural mentality thing, but it's based in a very real situation, which is that housing in chareidi communities is outrageous, and constantly rising. For example, rental prices in Beitar have basically doubled in the last 10 years, which is typical for such a community. So if a couple is renting, and their rent keeps rising as they have children and their expenses increase, after 10 years the couple finds themselves in an untenable situation that is ever worsening. So if parents can help the couple get started with an apartment, they can basically work out a "rent stabilized" situation, since the mortgage payments are worked out to be affordable. For a whole range of reasons, chareidi incomes are low (google it to see the statistics) and despite a lot of effort in this area, that situation is not improving much. So whether you agree or not with the reasons an apartment is "necessary", understand that it's not considered a luxury but a means for long-term survival.