What would you consider a tragedy?

ora_43

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:51 am

amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:

Comes Bar Mitzvah. Both sets of parents are there. The new foster parents showed slides of all happy pics while he is growing up among her children & they are proud of the accomplishments of how he progressed there.
Then his real father gets up at podium with a whole drasha how you are supposed to have emunah when tragedy hits etc...

What a terrible father. That poor kid.

amother

Peach

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 1:53 am

It depends on your personal circumstances.
For my family having a DS child would have been a huge tragedy.
Young people being sick and dying is a tragedy. But again, as you age your perspective on what young is changes.
My friend's husband died in his 20's. She doesn't consider it a tragedy, as they were heading towards divorce.
What I'm trying to say is your perspective and life circumstances contribute a lot to how you define tragedy.

ora_43

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 2:00 am

I'm with you, OP. And with daagahminayin, who said it implies a certain finality. Until the situation is "over" it's better described as awful, terrible, or any one of a dozen other words.

I would even be slightly more stingy with my use of "tragic" - for me it implies a degree of unexpectedness.

Eg a 90-year-old dying is sad, it's a difficult loss, but it's not tragic. A 25-year-old dying unexpectedly is tragic. An 80-year-old developing alzheimer's is horrific, a 30-year-old developing alzheimer's is tragic.

JMHO and of course this isn't meant to make light of suffering, just to talk about this one specific word.

amother

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 2:18 am

Thanks for all of you for sharing.

I guess I was asking more generally. Obviously, in specific circumstances, things may vary, things may vary. Like the 37 year old ruby amother who is expecting her first, yes, a miscarriage for someone in her situation would truly be tragic.
And peach, your friend's husband who died was a tragedy, but perhaps not for her. Anyone dying in the 20's is a tragedy.

My discussion with my friend was more in the line of: A woman with a family of 10 children who suffers a miscarriage, it's more like a blip. However, a woman with a very small family who was yearning for another child, finally conceives, and then miscarries, it's much more difficult.

A woman has a huge family of 13 healthy, beautiful children and then gives birth to a beautiful child with DS, is it a tragedy? A challenge?

Sorry if I'm not being coherent. It's late! Would love to hear your thoughts but please remove yourself from this thread if it's a trigger.

amother

Chocolate

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 3:16 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

My friend and I were having a discussion. I tried to explain to her that I didn't think of a specific woman I knew as a "nebach" who had a child with Down syndrome at the age of 46 (child #14- and yes, she gave up the child, but that's for that other thread....). I just miscarried a week ago. Using that as an example, I explained that I don't think of my early miscarriage as a tragedy. I was devastated, but in my opinion it's not a tragedy. Children with DS bring a lot of simcha into a home. I hope I never have that nisayon, and perhaps I can't judge, but would you classify giving birth to a child with DS as a tragedy? Losing a child or other loved ones r"l is a tragedy. Being childless is a tragedy. Experiencing a stillbirth is a tragedy. Having a child going OTD is a tragedy.

Would you consider a first trimester isolated miscarriage a tragedy?
Would you consider giving birth to a child with DS a tragedy?

I'm sorry if this question brings up intense emotions but please don't bash me on this thread. I brought up this topic out of curiosity and perhaps to spark a discussion, but like I said, I just experienced a pregnancy loss and am still very sensitive and don't know if I'm ready emotionally to be bashed here.

No. A tragedy is a premature death or young person (under 70) who suffers a serious (terminal) illness.

Even 3 miscarriages (like I had) are not a tragedy. They're just G-d's way of saying "I like torturing you."

DS is not a tragedy. Finding out that your child has a terminal illness AFTER birth, that your child will now need to suffer until s/he dies, when everything until then looked healthy, that might be a tragedy.

amother

Chocolate

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 3:17 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Tragic, but not a tragedy.

banana123

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 3:19 am

amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:

your post reminds me of an incident.

I once attended a Bar Mitzvah for a ds boy.

He was living at a family from birth. I don't know if legally adopted or only foster care but she very much considers him, her child & treats him just like her other kids.

I know him from this family from growing up there. Very hi functioning, always part of things by this family & brings joy.

He never cut ties with his biological parents. They gave him up by birth because they had a large family & marrying off kids & it was too much to handle at time.

Comes Bar Mitzvah. Both sets of parents are there. The new foster parents showed slides of all happy pics while he is growing up among her children & they are proud of the accomplishments of how he progressed there.
Then his real father gets up at podium with a whole drasha how you are supposed to have emunah when tragedy hits etc...

Talking about same person....one viewed it as a nachas & one as a painful sitch.

Wow. That's so amazing that the foster parents threw the party and let the birth father give a drasha, even though they knew it might be embarrassing.

amother

Cerise

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 3:32 am

amother [ Peach ] wrote:

A person who can say such a comment, shouldn't be having children, as you are never guaranteed against it.
FYI:
Hashem has an interesting sense of humor. He is likely to give such a special Neshama to those who are afraid of them, to show them: Taamu Ir'u ki Tov!
These precious children are not as bad as you think!

FranticFrummie

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 9:56 am

Slightly off topic:

My daughter is adopted. Her birth parents were at her bas mitzva.

They have always been a very active part of her life. There have been some recent circumstances outside of my control, and she happens to be living with her birth mom and step-dad at the moment. We are actually co-parenting her in a way. It takes a village, yadda yadda yadda.

We all love and care for her, even though she can be a very difficult kid at times. BPD, severe anxiety, and depression for starters. No one is guaranteed a perfect, neurotypical child.

(BTW, the term "real parent" is very offensive. All parents are real. There are real birth parents, and real adoptive parents. None of us are fake.)

amother

Tangerine

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 10:24 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

Sorry you are right, those foster parents were more the real ones if they raised him totally. I meant to say the biological. sorry if it triggered you.

amother

Tangerine

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 10:28 am

banana123 wrote:

Wow. That's so amazing that the foster parents threw the party and let the birth father give a drasha, even though they knew it might be embarrassing.

It was to thank the foster parents for raising him but he started out with emunah strengthening when a tzara hits....

As for the child, I don't think he understood the implications.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 10:31 am

amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:

Sorry you are right, those foster parents were more the real ones if they raised him totally. I meant to say the biological. sorry if it triggered you.

Thanks. It's just a pet peeve of mine. The bio parents had to go through their own soul searching to do what they thought was best for the DS child, and you don't have any idea how painful it was for them. You can't really judge and say who is doing the better job or doing the right thing.

Sometimes a lot of people are brought into playing important roles in a child's life. Like I said before, none of them are more "real" than others, just different aspects.

The only, ONLY thing that matters at the end of the day, is that the child is healthy and happy. Period, end of sentence.

dankbar

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 10:39 am

I think the initial shock of having a ds child is traumatic for anyone, especially if weren't aware before birth. Once they raise them it comes with challenges but the child also brings joy into the home.
That's where I can see parents that give up this child by birth stay with the painful feelings without experiencing the joys.

It is more difficult for the biological parents to raise such a child as they are dealing with shattered dreams first, and if child doesnt progress so nicely, then it is harder for them to watch etc....

amother

Tangerine

Sun, Jan 12 2020, 10:46 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I am not judging the bio parents for giving child up. It was to the child's greatest benefit to be raised by this wonderful family who gave their all. He is happy & successful bh.

It was just an interesting observation for me that right after watching the beautiful slides they put together & the foster parents glowing, we heard bio father talking. It seemed like with same sitch, one set of parents were so proud where as other set was in pain. Could be the pain was more for not raising child idk, but it was very interesting for me.