What bothers me about separate dancing

amother

Sun, May 24 2020, 8:49 am

I'll preface this my saying that I'm LWMO and the weddings I'm talking about are mainstream MO weddings in Israel.

The dancing is separated by a mechitza, and that doesn't bother me. What does bother me, is that in the middle of the women's dancing, a few men always come over to the women's side. Usually the groom, a few of his friends and maybe FIL. Women are not allowed in the men's side.

Separation itself doesn't bother me as long as things are separate but equal. But here the message is : men have the right to choose whether or not they want to see women dancing, but a woman doesn't have the right to choose whether or not she wants men to see her dance (other than stop dancing when the men come, which is what the stricter women do; the stricter men get to dance whenever they want and tell at any woman who spills into their space). So men get 100% of the rights and women get 0%.

My suggested solutions:
A) all mixed dancing
B) all seperate dancing - no men allowed in women's side
C) three sections, men's, women's, and mixed.

What do you think?

amother

Sun, May 24 2020, 8:54 am

If a man came into the women's section of shul on Shabbat and started using his phone, the women would tell him to get out. But when the men come where women are dancing, no one tells them to leave. The message in my eyes is "we don't really believe it is wrong for men to see women dance, but we have to accommodate the hardline men, but the the hardline women will just have to deal with it".

shabbatiscoming

Sun, May 24 2020, 8:58 am

So interesting. All midern orthodox or dati leumi weddings ive ever been to in israel or america, it is always the kallah that is brought to the men's side, never the other way around.

33055

Sun, May 24 2020, 8:59 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

This is what you woke up to [talk] about??? Can't Believe It

How about love and let love policy towards your fellow Jews? BH there are Jewish weddings again.

Have your simchas the way you want.

amother

Azure

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:03 am

Men get aroused much faster than women, biologically.
If a man decided to come in its his problem.
I’d stop dancing because it would make me uncomfortable.
In my circles (RW) it’s the opposite.
Bride is brought in to the men, not the groom.

amother

Silver

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:05 am

I’m rw yeshivish. I never heard of these “rules”. I aLways go into the men’s side to schmooze with dh and my brothers, and no one has ever called security on me

amother

Natural

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:07 am

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

Men get aroused much faster than women, biologically.
If a man decided to come in its his problem.
I’d stop dancing because it would make me uncomfortable.

I would also be uncomfortable to dance.

What do I care about their biology? There is a mechitzah and it's very wrong for them to come in to the women's side.

I wonder if this happens at every wedding or it runs in families.

To me it's a lower caliber man.

amother

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:07 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

So interesting. All midern orthodox or dati leumi weddings ive ever been to in israel or america, it is always the kallah that is brought to the men's side, never the other way around.

First the bride goes over to the men's side and the men do their funny stints, but after that both the bride, groom, and a few other men go to the women's side.

amother

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:08 am

Squishy wrote:

This is what you woke up to b!tch about??? Can't Believe It

How about love and let love policy towards your fellow Jews? BH there are Jewish weddings again.

Have your simchas the way you want.

That's really rude. I think you could use some ahavat Israel yourself!

amother

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:09 am

DrMom wrote:

The women should speak up. "Hey, there's a mechitzah here for a reason, buddy."

If it were just a random man, or a few men, then yes. But no one would tell that to a groom at his wedding.

amother

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:12 am

amother [ Silver ] wrote:

I’m rw yeshivish. I never heard of these “rules”. I aLways go into the men’s side to schmooze with dh and my brothers, and no one has ever called security on me

Women are allowed to go into the men's section to watch, but not to dance. But the men can go to the women's section, see women dancing, and if you're a woman and that makes you unconfortable you have to stop dancing. So men don't have to watch women dance, but women don't have a space where they can dance without men coming in and seeing.

33055

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:14 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

That's really rude. I think you could use some ahavat Israel yourself!

I am not the one criticizing someone else's chassunah. You can't control what other people do. Don't go. Stop dancing. But stop your public complaining.

amother

Red

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:14 am

I have seen the bride's father and brothers come to the women's side to dance as a family with the bride and her mother and sisters. All the other women stop dancing and clap. This is fine to me, since it can't work the other way. I guess the chassan could come dance for his kallah on the women's side, and I guess the whole chassan family could dance together around a seated kallah on the women's side. But I don't see what else would work. And it's usually quick.

amother

Azure

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:15 am

I wouldn’t like it either.
But I don’t think mixed dancing is good, ever.
It literally sends the shechina away.
And especially at a wedding the bride and groom need G-d’s extra help that all should go well for them in their new life together.
Not a good idea to upset Hashem with mixed dancing which is forbidden according to His Torah.

amother

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:15 am

The men who come to the women's section aren't exactly coming in to "watch" the women dance, they are dancing and having fun themselves, and probably not paying attention, but for the more RW women would still hold it's assure to dance in their presence.

amother

Red

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:18 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If it's a family unit, why not let them have their couple of minutes at their family simchah when they dance and the women stop? It's not like they can do the same thing on the men's side.

amother

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:19 am

amother [ Red ] wrote:

Very interesting. Maybe this is what it's originally supposed to be, but the point gets lost because some of the groom's unrelated friends see men going into the women's side, so they go too, and some of the women see women still dancing so they dance too.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, May 24 2020, 9:27 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

First the bride goes over to the men's side and the men do their funny stints, but after that both the bride, groom, and a few other men go to the women's side.

So weird. I have literally never ever seen this Smile

I have seen, at the end of dancing, families have gotten together to dance.