For all those jealous of the poor—peaceful discussion please

amother

NeonPink

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 6:48 pm

amother OP wrote:

So I don't know the exact answer , but in my opinion if it's something that gets in the way of doing what Jewish people need to do to keep mitzvos...(someone else wrote it better than me) then it's a non luxury
Jewish school is non luxury
A menorah is not a luxury
Neither is a succah
Pizza Motzei Shabbos is a luxury
Mishloach manos I am still not sure where to draw the line ..
Donuts on chanuka when prices are super high is a luxury
Scrambled eggs at home is not a luxury..

Right that was me. I asked the question to prove that there is no true objective poverty mark and it can't be based on an arbitrary number.

amother

Rainbow

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 6:53 pm

amother Ivory wrote:

She can't even know who was suicidal.

I was. I only told my husband, no one else. My own immediate family had no idea. It wasn't the lack of cleaning help that broke me (I don't use cleaning help) but it was something that others probably see as just as shallow.

People need to survive. And if what they need is cleaning help, then instead of judging them for paying with money they don't have, help them somehow get it funded. It sure is cheaper than spending on all the resources needed to put a broken family back together.

Sounds like you have extenuating mental and or physical needs.

If someone is diabetic they need dialysis. If they have OCD they need a therapist and or medication. Perhaps you fall in a small percentage of people for whom cleaning help is literally as important as water. But for most of us, it is a want or need, but not a can’t-live-without.

amother

NeonPink

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 6:54 pm

amother Rainbow wrote:

Sounds more like you are of the lucky minority!
Most people have extenuating needs and cleaning help is as important as water.

Trademark

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:14 pm

notshanarishona wrote:

Yes someone who has money for $20 to throw our on flowers shouldn’t be asking for tsedakah in my opinion. That is a undisputed (I think) luxury. The last time I remember buying flowers was for my wedding.

That's extreme.

You would only give tzedakah so a person can buy bread and heat their home, but never ever experience small joys in their life?

I would gladly give a poor person $20 so they can brighten their life with fresh flowers.

I would gladly give tzedakah for a poor family to enjoy more than the bare minimum.

amother

Kiwi

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:25 pm

amother Pearl wrote:

I'm sorry - but is this post meant to be sarcastic? $20 flowers for Shabbos? Please don't me that there is anyone here who thinks that flowers for Shabbos should be purchased by people who are on govt services. And you do not need to have dinner out. That is a luxury except perhaps when you are in the midst of turning your kitchen over for Pesach. You do not have to purchase a coffee. Make your own at home if you drink coffee at all.

You have filled your post with luxuries. I have never had a cleaning lady except someone to clean the bathroom after I bought a house 20+ years ago. I have never bought a coffee. I almost never go out to eat. I havent purchased flowers in well over a dozen years. I don't think I am deprived at all.

You are living an extreme frugal lifestyle by most standards and expect everyone else to as well. Better that you should splurge on yourself so you can find it in your heart to spare some change so a poor person can go out for an occasional coffee and have small bouquet of flowers on her shabbos table. People on government assistance are human beings too.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:37 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

Why do you assume everyone lives in a 2 adult home????

And specifically in my case, at that time, my husband did not help me at all and I was unable to do it myself.

Is that seriously so so hard to understand?

I don't assume. I said in that case, exempting other cases.
I'm sorry your husband didn't help you.

I'm not saying cleaning help isn't warranted. I am saying it's a step removed from considering it a necessity for survival like electricity or dental care. That's all. I do understand it's easier for me to speak about this on a hypothetical level than it is for you when it really was your life. I'm not talking about individual circumstances, I'm just talking in general terms about the concept as a whole.

I do understand. Believe me, I do. I hope you're well past that hard time of your life. ❤️

amother

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:45 pm

Trademark wrote:

I would also be glad to (although I don't really have enough to give I have in the past helped with some people much more needier than me to get cleaning help for example in certain situations, and I didn't get myself) I think her point was that if you see someone needs something essential they are missing and you give them money for it and they spend it on something else less important , it would bother you from giving them again... Not that one wouldnt want to help someone get flowers for Shabbos. (but I am not here to put words in people's mouth..) on the same token I know of a couple (kids married) who due to an extreme circumstance was not able to pay their rent and eventually was determined by court to get kicked out by the landlord...
Well tons of money was collected for them (so they can move to another place and have money to start again)and they moved to another town but also they used a nice portion of that money for a vacation... Very possible they really needed that vacation as I personally know the threat they went under...

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 7:45 pm

To put it in perspective, I remember years ago one of my kids came home from school and needed I forgot what, $5? $15? for some mandated school thing (he was very young) and the same week he was Shabbos Abba and I had to buy treats for the class and I didn't know how I would swing both at the same time. I had no spare cash at all in my budget. I was living paycheck to paycheck. So BH while I was better than those going into overdraft/credit card debt, I was really barely surviving financially and every single expense could throw me over budget making us take it out of the only expense we had control over that week which was probably groceries. I figured out how to clean the bathroom while bathing a 3 yo. I would do a laundry marathon on Sunday and be wiped and still have my Shabbos dishes waiting for me because I didn't have a chance to do them M"S. It just became my reality that if I don't have cleaning help, it'll work out somewhat for better or worse. Probably worse. 😂
But we lived to tell the tale and my house is still messy and we still don't have cleaning help but BH I'm in a place where I have family members able to pitch in more now.

#BestBubby

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 8:01 pm

Trademark wrote:

I read the whole back and forth discussion on what it means to be poor etc, so I'm reposting the below.

I once heard a great line. It's different being poor in Russia (or any third world country), in Israel, or the US. If it's bashert for me to be poor, Hashem should let me be poor in America.

Sometimes, it is easier to be poor if nearly everyone is poor,

then to be less poor where it seems everyone has $$$,

amother

Yarrow

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 8:03 pm

amother Stone wrote:

I realize this is a bit tangential but the current Medicaid income eligibility for someone over 65 is $934 for a single person and $1367 for a married couple - or $11,208 for a single person or $16,404.

Am I missing something because if someone is actually attempting to support themselves on those incomes they are so below the level that ANYONE (not just frum) would need just for basics of food and rent that their life is wretchedly poor - cat food would be a gourmet item for their diet. Sad

Anyone who worked or whose spouse worked would be receiving Social Security payments in excess of that amount per month.

I am not familiar first hand with Medicaid so if I am wrong and somehow there are higher income levels for senior eligibility let me know.

I understand that children are eligible at higher income levels and that families with children as well since family size is taken into consideration but I am looking at the income eligibility requirements for regular seniors which seem to require an income that is below even "poverty"

Income can be very complicated and many states don't have an asset limit so a retired person with a large amount in savings and working a few hours a week will have very low income and be eligible for medicaid.

I have a friend who is a babysitter. She was earning about $14K/yr. She lives In a 2 bedroom apartment in an area where the rent would be $2K month. It's owned by a relative and she lives there in exchange for paying the taxes, condo fees and maintenance so about $600/month. She rents out the 2nd bedroom for $1,000. Real estate income counts at 70% for the IRS and she has expenses to show so she has profit there of about $500/month. Her car is mostly used for work and costs her $300/month so she deducts 90% of that. Her income comes out be about $16K/yr and she would be eligible for a fair amount of programs but she has a car and a home so managing groceries and clothing on the rest isn't awful.

Trademark

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 8:44 pm

amother OP wrote:

We have to find it in our hearts to give tzedakah without looking back to see where the person spends the money.

I give my ma'aser to some relatives. I don't know anything about their finances -except that they are kollel families in Israel, and I don't ask. I don't look how they spend their money. I don't expect them to look poor and I don't care if she buys a new dress or gets some cleaning help. And if they spend it on small or even a bit larger extras, I'm happy for them. I want them to have joy in their life.

Tzedakah is not only about food, but also about dignity.

There is a halacha that if a rich person becomes poor we have to give tzedakah so he can live on his old standard.

notshanarishona

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 9:30 pm

Trademark wrote:

I am talking more from the perspective of the person asking for tzedakah than from the giver. I don’t think the giver gets to decide what the person is using it but I do have a problem with a person saying I need money to feed my kids and then buying pizza or flowers or similar luxuries. It all depends on how they are asking/ who they are getting it from.

Also , a once in a blue moon spending extra money is one thing which I think most people would do vs someone who does it every week but then cries poverty because they don’t know how to budget.

I think the overall point many people are making is that it’s painful to see those who cry poverty and take at every opportunity living at higher standards than many are able too.

amother

Pearl

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 10:02 pm

Trademark wrote:

It's extreme to think that $20 on flowers is a luxury? So flowers for Shabbos (even once in a while) is a necessity? I think your standard of living is way out of touch with many of the posters here. Do you also never shop at Target for clothes?

amother

Pearl

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 10:03 pm

Trademark wrote:

Something tells me that you are very comfortably well off..

ora_43

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 10:40 pm

mikayla18 wrote:

The person I was talking about has none of those things, between a regular mortgage, 8 tuitions and camp, insurance, food, having family for yt etc...costs are extreme.

That's precisely my second example.

I'm not saying that being middle class is easy. Just that there's a difference between financial strain and poverty. It's hard to juggle the basics around and to constantly have to decide whether braces or new shoes are more important, whether a kid needs therapy badly enough to put retirement savings on hold for it, etc.

It's still very significantly different from the kind of poor where you can't have braces or shoes, therapy or retirement savings, unless you get from tzedaka.

Among other things, gradually paying off a mortgage is a huge deal. The person you're talking about is eventually going to own their home.

ora_43

Thu, Jan 12 2023, 10:49 pm

I do get that "poor" can still be a nice lifestyle in some cases. I can think of a couple people I know who cry poverty, but also have stuff I can only dream of.

But those are just the most visible cases. Mostly, people who are poor have to go without a lot more than people in the middle class. (assuming a difference of $20,000+, otherwise it's pretty much equal because of programs as people have said)

It's mostly little stuff but that little stuff can really add up. Second-hand clothes that don't quite fit instead of cheap new stuff, a car that breaks 5x a year instead of 2x, struggling to put together an allergy-friendly menu with food pantry stuff vs forgoing salmon and berries but otherwise just buying whatever food people need.

And the stress of not owning the home you live in. Needing to move more frequently and spend more time searching for housing.

Day to day life might look around the same but over time there's a real difference.

(and that's talking about getting-by poor, not "six kids in one bedroom, living off of bread and beans" poor)