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amother
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 6:23 am
and is there any way to do teshuva for these sins?
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amother
Amethyst
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 10:30 am
Why would you be thinking about this? Isn't it not a thing these days?
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amother
Chartreuse
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 10:47 am
amother [ Violet ] wrote: | https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1514617/kareis-how-to-rectify-it.html |
Excellent article. Yes, it is a "thing". Gehennom is also a thing although it's not terribly popular to talk about nowadays.
Yes, sechar and onesh are still a thing.
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malki2
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 10:52 am
The common ones are forbidden relations and chillul Shabbos. Teshuva is always possible though and is excepted. Especially Yom Kippur is effective in wiping slates clean. For any aveira.
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amother
Amethyst
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 10:58 am
amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote: | Excellent article. Yes, it is a "thing". Gehennom is also a thing although it's not terribly popular to talk about nowadays.
Yes, sechar and onesh are still a thing. |
Woah.
I thought Kares would mean stoning, or a physical punishment given by a beis din, and beis din these days don't give physical punishments as far as I know.
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Rappel
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 11:00 am
Eating produce of eretz Yisrael which hasn't had terumot and maaserot taken off.
Yes, there is teshuva.
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Elfrida
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 11:08 am
We don't have any Beit Din with that kind of authority today.
Karet, however, is a divinely imposed punishment, and does not necessarily involve any physical suffering. Ones neshama is cut off from the Jewish people for eternity. It's impossible from our perspective to understand what kind of suffering that would cause to the neshama.
Teshuva and Yom Kippur can delay the punishment, and suffering can enable the neshama to undergo some kind of tikkun which would mean that the full punishment would not apply. I think the level of understanding of the aveirah when o e committed it may also be a factor. Teshuva is always an option, and the gates of tears are never closed.
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malki2
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 11:21 am
Elfrida wrote: | We don't have any Beit Din with that kind of authority today.
Karet, however, is a divinely imposed punishment, and does not necessarily involve any physical suffering. Ones neshama is cut off from the Jewish people for eternity. It's impossible from our perspective to understand what kind of suffering that would cause to the neshama.
Teshuva and Yom Kippur can delay the punishment, and suffering can enable the neshama to undergo some kind of tikkun which would mean that the full punishment would not apply. I think the level of understanding of the aveirah when o e committed it may also be a factor. Teshuva is always an option, and the gates of tears are never closed. |
Teshuva and Yom Kippur can wipe the aveiros away completely, not just “delay the punishment.”
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miami85
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 11:23 am
In this day and age we don't really know if and how kareis is meted out as we don't have a beis din capable of giving these punishments and also the criteria of being sufficiently warned may not apply in most cases, but it is said that kareis can be done in the form of a person not having children or their descendants not being Jewish anymore. Kareis means cut off both physically and spiritually.
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Elfrida
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 11:53 am
malki2 wrote: | Teshuva and Yom Kippur can wipe the aveiros away completely, not just “delay the punishment.” |
According to the Rambam in Hilchot Teshuva:
עבר על כריתות ומיתות בית דין ועשה תשובה, תשובה ויום הכיפורים תולים, ויסורין הבאים עליו גומרים לו כפרה. ולעולם אין מכפר לו כפרה גמורה, עד שיבואו עליו יסורין.
"Someone who committed aveirot that would require death at the hands of a Beit Din or karet; teshuvah and Yom Kippur can delay the punishment, and suffering that will come upon him completes the kapara. It is impossible for him to reach this full kapara until he had undergone suffering."
Teshuva and Yom Kippur alone are sufficient for more minor aveirot - according to the Rambam this would be if one transgressed a positive or negative mitzva that does not involve karet or death at the hands of Beit Din.
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amother
OP
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 12:11 pm
amother [ Violet ] wrote: | https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1514617/kareis-how-to-rectify-it.html |
Do all opinions agree with the Rambam that it is only for sins committed from the age of 20?
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malki2
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 12:16 pm
Elfrida wrote: | According to the Rambam in Hilchot Teshuva:
עבר על כריתות ומיתות בית דין ועשה תשובה, תשובה ויום הכיפורים תולים, ויסורין הבאים עליו גומרים לו כפרה. ולעולם אין מכפר לו כפרה גמורה, עד שיבואו עליו יסורין.
"Someone who committed aveirot that would require death at the hands of a Beit Din or karet; teshuvah and Yom Kippur can delay the punishment, and suffering that will come upon him completes the kapara. It is impossible for him to reach this full kapara until he had undergone suffering."
Teshuva and Yom Kippur alone are sufficient for more minor aveirot - according to the Rambam this would be if one transgressed a positive or negative mitzva that does not involve karet or death at the hands of Beit Din. |
In Hilchot Teshuvah, the Rambam says that Yom Kippur is mechaper on all sins. And that is our tradition, even if it does not match with the Rambam that you quoted.
Last edited by malki2 on Mon, Feb 17 2020, 10:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Chartreuse
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 12:21 pm
malki2 wrote: | In Hilchot Yom Hakipurim, the Rambam says that Yom Kippur is mechaper on all sins. And that is our tradition, even if it does not match with the Rambam that you quoted. |
Who is "our"? There's no get out of jail free card. So if Hitler yemach shmo fasted yom kippur he'd be fine? That's not schar vaonesh.
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amother
Scarlet
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 12:25 pm
Isn't eating chometz on Pesach chayav kareis?
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Elfrida
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 12:28 pm
Please provide a detailed reference.
Hilchot Avodat Yom HaKipurim refers to the Avodah in the Mikdash and the Seir HaMishtaleach, which is unfortunately less applicable in our days.
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imasoftov
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 12:58 pm
Elfrida wrote: | Please provide a detailed reference.
Hilchot Avodat Yom HaKipurim refers to the Avodah in the Mikdash and the Seir HaMishtaleach, which is unfortunately less applicable in our days. |
I looked in both Hilchot Shvitat Asor and Hilchot Avodat Yom Hakippurim but didn't find "Yom Kippur is mechaper on all sins" in either.
The statement that the seir atones for all sins including those punished by karet is in Hil. Teshuva 1:2. Whether 1:4 (which is what you quoted) is what is in effect today (1:3 mentioning the difference between times that sacrifices were brought and now) or also modifies 1:2 is I suppose a question for commentators so references to those would be relevant here, too.
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malki2
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 1:07 pm
amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote: | Who is "our"? There's no get out of jail free card. So if Hitler yemach shmo fasted yom kippur he'd be fine? That's not schar vaonesh. |
Let me ask you a question. How does teshuva work at all being that there’s schar veonesh (which of course I understand that there is)?
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amother
Ruby
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 2:31 pm
amother [ Amethyst ] wrote: | Woah.
I thought Kares would mean stoning, or a physical punishment given by a beis din, and beis din these days don't give physical punishments as far as I know. |
No that's סקילה.
The only one of the 4 misos b"d thats still around is kares.
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malki2
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Sun, Feb 16 2020, 3:03 pm
imasoftov wrote: | I looked in both Hilchot Shvitat Asor and Hilchot Avodat Yom Hakippurim but didn't find "Yom Kippur is mechaper on all sins" in either.
The statement that the seir atones for all sins including those punished by karet is in Hil. Teshuva 1:2. Whether 1:4 (which is what you quoted) is what is in effect today (1:3 mentioning the difference between times that sacrifices were brought and now) or also modifies 1:2 is I suppose a question for commentators so references to those would be relevant here, too. |
Yes, the Rambam I was referring to is in Hilchot Teshuva 1:2. The שעיר המשתלח is Mechaper on ALL sins. Including Karet. And our Yom Kippur service is in place of the Avoda of the Beit Hamikdash.
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