Speak no Evil | Imamother

Mommyg8

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:41 pm

Fox wrote:

Except that no one -- not a single poster, including me -- has said that we shouldn't discuss abuse in general.

What we are saying is that endlessly discussing a specific case and attempting to tease out the details to the point that friends and neighbors could identify a victim against his/her will -- is a gross violation of the victim's rights and serves no useful purpose.

Why do you think I yammer endlessly about the special bais din in Chicago -- to the point that everyone is sick of hearing about it? Do you think it's because I minimize abuse or don't believe victims? No. It's because I value real solutions over complaining.

If your community hasn't had an asifa on the topic with qualified psychologists speaking, that's where to start -- not discussing details of a high-profile case on Imamother or even IRL.

The only posters I've seen here who are looking for details are the ones saying - "I don't know, I don't know if this really happened, I need to hear more details. Is there a recording? Can I hear it? What did the bais din say? How many people? Why did the bais din do it this way? They should have done it that way."

THOSE are the posters - and I apologize if I have offended some posters on this thread - who are simply looking for gossip, IMO.

Is it really so hard to believe that many posters really have good intentions? Do you really think so poorly of all of us frum women?

And how do you know who it is that helps people IRL? You know nothing about us. And to be quite honest, if there were so many people dealing with this issue IRL, the world would be a much different place.

Maybe some of these posts will cause one woman to do something to help one person. Then wouldn't all this have been worth it? Saying that you haven't seen change in all the years is the wrong way to look at it, I'm sorry. First of all, there has been a LOT of change in the past few years. Theres a MUCH greater awareness of this issue than there was, perhaps, 20 years ago. And there's been a lot of changes, in many ways.

Social media in general has a lot of pitfalls. If you think it's not a good place for you to be, get off. Noone is forcing you to read any threads.

taketwo

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:44 pm

momsrus wrote:

That’s an insult to the victims.

I meant that in reference to what I wrote upthread

"And the fact that many many housholds here have been involved with the abuser, by having his books in our homes. We've all been duped by him and feel betrayed by his books. We can call ourselves personally victimized and chose to talk about it here. You can chose to keep quiet."

I'll further clarify. I've used those books to teach my kids about emotional health. Multiple books were read very often as bedtime stories. Knowing that I was teaching my kids this from a predators book makes me feel very betrayed.

Sorry if it was misunderstood

allthingsblue

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:45 pm

taketwo wrote:

This.

Many many people are affected by this at varying levels.

Mommyg8

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:47 pm

And I'm having a very difficult time understanding the point of many of these posts. Yes, this became public knowledge because a reporter decided to make this story public. Should he have done that? Was that the right thing to do? I honestly have no idea.

But its done. Once that article was published, the cat was out of the bag. And we all know how hard it is to put it back in.

The internet is literally open to anybody who wants to say anything, and there are countless sites for them to do so. Trying to stop it by posting here on imamother is, IMO, exactly the same as trying to empty the ocean by using a teaspoon. Good luck.

allthingsblue

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:55 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

This. From what I’ve heard based on Rabbi Breitowitz, if I recall correctly , the reporter should not have reported in such a fashion but once it’s out there, it’s publicly disseminated and has a different status halachically.

b.chadash

Fri, Dec 31 2021, 12:59 pm

taketwo wrote:

You keep using the word gossip. We can't hear you when you use it. We've already said nobody is discussing details of the abuse. Nobody here has been telling over someone else's story. We've been talking about an abuser and the fact that there are victims. There is zero speculation who they are.

And the fact that many many housholds here have been involved with the abuser, by having his books in our homes. We've all been duped by him and feel betrayed by his books. We can call ourselves personally victimized and chose to talk about it here. You can chose to keep quiet. What you can not do is silent us by saying we are "amoral liars just cloaking their own awful middos."

Excellent post.

dancingqueen

Sat, Jan 01 2022, 6:25 pm

Fox wrote:

We do not support anyone by gossiping about them and involuntarily outing them as victims of abuse. Not every victim feels empowered by that, and I've never heard a mental health professional endorse gossip as empowering to victims in any way. On the contrary, the nature of victimization makes it far more important that individuals victims call the shots -- not those of us who wish to process tragic events.

It is perfectly possible to address abuse without discussing specific cases. Endless speculation is nothing more than gossip.

Oh that I agree on completely, I thought it was obvious that trying to figure out who the victims are or out them without their consent is very wrong.

However, speaking about the situation and supporting those who do come out instead of refusing to believe the abuser could do such a thing is a way to help give support and empower those survivors.

Fox

Sun, Jan 02 2022, 4:11 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Honestly, I think we're in agreement. I'm not insulting everyone on Imamother, let alone every frum woman. I'm insulting women who participate in endless rehashing of specific cases with no toeles and justify their gossip with pop psychology.

Let me remind everyone that this thread is NOT specifically about abuse. It could just as easily be about someone who committed financial crimes; has a special needs child, etc.

My point is that the vast majority of these threads and discussions add nothing to assisting victims (and may be harmful to victims); add nothing to preventing abuse or any other depravity; and add nothing to making our communities safer. To the extent that's the case, we should neither participate in such discussions and should not defend those who do.

I don't doubt that many posters have good intentions. That doesn't excuse their behavior and seems as often as not to be an excuse.

Mommyg8 wrote:

Maybe some of these posts will cause one woman to do something to help one person. Then wouldn't all this have been worth it? Saying that you haven't seen change in all the years is the wrong way to look at it, I'm sorry. First of all, there has been a LOT of change in the past few years. Theres a MUCH greater awareness of this issue than there was, perhaps, 20 years ago. And there's been a lot of changes, in many ways.

More excuses. I've outlined what my community does. I've outlined my beliefs. Not a single poster has shared how her community is handling abuse effectively. Not a single poster has disagreed with my statements upthread about how I believe we should respond to abuse (or any extreme impropriety, for that matter).

What HAS been said, in various ways, is two-fold:

1. If you don't support rehashing and endless discussion about specific cases, it's because you deny the existence of abuse and defend abusers; and

2. We want to chat about this, and who are you to deny us that privilege.

The notion that you can't respond to bad behavior except through rehashing specific cases has no basis in halacha or hashkafa. If your rav says to remove certain books from your personal library, you do it. If not, not.

Now there are threads speculating about other abuse cases and a particularly nasty thread in response to someone who simply suggested turning the page. As always, the poor OP was accused of denying victims their voice and defending predators.

There are plenty of things we can do to help victims as well as protect our communities. The fact that almost no one seems to be as interested in those topics tells me exactly how serious they are -- in most cases, not at all.

Fox

Sun, Jan 02 2022, 4:25 am

dancingqueen wrote:

When I read this, it seems like everyone has a hammer and therefore every thread is a nail.

Who said anything about denying abuse? Who said anything about being unsupportive of victims? I agree those are problems, but they're completely irrelevant to this thread.

This thread is about the fact that discussions about specific cases or situations often have zero toeles and quickly degenerate into idle gossip and speculation.

My evidence is that virtually none of these threads focus on solutions AND this topic seems of interest to many posters only when there's a public scandal. There are tons of useful topics concerning abuse and other egregious aveiros, but they get little to no attention. If someone is only interested in participating in a discussion when there's a public scandal involved, she's just a gossip.

PinkFridge

Sun, Jan 02 2022, 6:14 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

And even those women we can be dlkz. This is incredibly difficult to wrap our heads around. Maybe some of them want some clarity so they can then be mekabel what they know, deep down, might be the truth.

Fox

Sun, Jan 02 2022, 6:41 am

PinkFridge wrote:

In theory, I don't disagree. But when so many posters vociferously defend and rationalize discussion that chews over the same details over and over . . . well, there's a point beyond which it's simply not defensible.

None of us need to poskin on guilt or innocence. None of us need to speculate about the evidence. None of us need to wait until there's a juicy scandal to address the topic with our kids. There is a tipping point at which further discussion is unwarranted. While we may disagree precisely where that tipping point is, we've passed it long ago.

PinkFridge

Sun, Jan 02 2022, 10:43 am

Fox wrote:

There is one other aspect and that is his books. Kids will wonder why their library shelves are empty.

Mermaidinexile

Sun, Jan 02 2022, 10:48 am

Fox wrote:

I've seen no "details" "chewed over ". Simply an attempt to allow this topic to go public and make that the norm, as it should be.

" Further discussion " is absolutely warranted and will serve to save others in the future for those who see themselves as above the law.

Take it from me- my father sits in prison for this very crime ( BH!!) Thanks to someone who finally spoke after over a decade of intimidation and silence.

But hey Fox, you do you. Keep going cause you just don't (or refuse to) get it.

And the more you post, the more the thread keeps going, so I'm cool with that.