For all those jealous of the poor—peaceful discussion please

farm

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 12:11 am

Assuming based on reading this thread that for Americans, healthcare is the big equalizer between poor and middle class (ie middle class has the same (no) disposable income because all of it is going toward healthcare once they lose Medicaid), wondering why more people don’t shift to union jobs like teaching, nursing, city or federal employment in any capacity where the healthcare coverage is excellent and inexpensive or free.

Amarante

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 12:15 am

farm wrote:

Many people do take jobs in large corporations which also offer excellent health coverage as a rule. Only about 10% purchase private insurance.

Prior to the passage of the AHCA the situation was even worse because many people could not even purchase insurance because even minor health conditions would enable an insurer to refuse to let a person purchase insurance.

amother

Watermelon

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 12:24 am

Ahca was horrible. Yes, I had to work out a plan because I was denied (for a non issue) but most people before Obamacare started got health insurance through their work. Obamacare raised the prices and lowered the quality. We used to not have a copay once the deductible was met, now we have a copay every time. Hospitals added more fees unless you’re on Medicare or medical assistance. Obamacare might seem all good and everything but it really did much more harm than good.

naturalmom5

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 12:25 am

amother OP wrote:

oh that explains it well I guess... I just remember when we were kids my dear loving uncle (yes he was the special one) would take his kids and nieces (and I was the oldest) to pizza and would get a pie one fries one Cajun one onion ring and two big fountain sodas for 13 or 14.99
Those old days don't exist anymore

AND I remember huge cherry cheese knishes in Coney Island for a quarter

naturalmom5

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 1:17 am

Amarante wrote:

We must have very different definitions of "real poverty" because most people living in real poverty would not have an extra $54 for cleaning help.

Perhaps there is some kind of disconnect where people *think* they are poor because they can't afford everything they want.

Not trying to be snarky but I don't know any budget which includes cleaning help weekly as an essential - it is considered to be discretionary spending.

Poverty in New York City for a family of four would be about $32,000 - adjust that if you have more children. I very much doubt that anyone making that low an income for their family is hiring cleaning ladies.

You would be surprisef
I have been to many homes in lakewood , there was a cl lady
But the fridge was bare , the cabinets are very sparse
Whenever possible thats where my extra food goes

amother

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 1:31 am

farm wrote:

I never knew it was like that. I (oblivious to the reality) would always think that those who were on Medicaid (self included) have an extremely difficult life and/or have medical conditions which limits them to work super hard and therefore their best choice would be to just remain low income and be on Medicaid. I would always think that the rest of the world (almost) never get sick and don't really have high expense medical bills and don't need insurance or need to constantly visit the doctor. After a while I saw that it's not the case. ( I still wonder though how those people unless it's not a stressful on go to work hard and add stress to their lives in addition to their medical situation, but the end of the day pey will tell me welcome to life .)

amother

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 1:34 am

Amarante wrote:

I really have no clue what these insurances given by corporations are. Could you list a few and give examples of what they cover. (Tbh it's not relevant to me but just really curious as why would a job pay a big salary plus insurance which also is equivalent to a big salary)

notshanarishona

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 1:39 am

amother OP wrote:

If a company is big enough insurance doesn’t cost them very much because of the volume. Regardless, most insurance that companies offer still has copays and a deductible.

notshanarishona

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 1:57 am

amother OP wrote:

It would cost me about $20-30K a year in heaLthcare (minimum) with all of my needs. That being said, I am pretty determined to get us off of programs because we need more money to live off of. The first few years are going to be super stressful and a huge decrease in living standards. It’s a very vulnerable time but I also hope we will move upwards once we get out of this pit. I wish there was more support for people trying to get out of the poverty level.

Amarante

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 10:35 am

notshanarishona wrote:

If a company is big enough insurance doesn’t cost them very much because of the volume. Regardless, most insurance that companies offer still has copays and a deductible.

To elaborate on this

Large corporations offer good health plans as well as other good benefits like matching 401(k) plans because they want to attract and retain good employees.

Offering good health plans is a win win for corporations because it is a tax deduction for the corporation and not taxable as income for an employee. Also FICA is not paid by the employer or the employee which is also a significant potential savings.

Large corporations can offer better insurance at lower cost because the cost for employing each employee is averaged by a large diverse pool - I.e. there are young employees who are cheaper to insure - there are men who tend to be cheaper to insure through middle age because they don't become pregnant - of course their wives do but that is different. Having a large pool of insured people is critical to keeping cost per person lower.

Many larger companies also self insure and so they only pay the insurance company to administer the plan.

Larger companies can completely structure their coverage to be exactly what they want - of course within the legal limits of the AHCA

Health care has become very expensive so increasingly employers are making their employees pay more for the coverage. Many people don't realize how much their corporate health insurance actually costs until they get a statement of what COBRA will cost and they are shocked by how much the premium would be without the employer either paying or heavily subsidizing it. In the past - before AHCA - many people were forced to use COBRA and pay the extremely high premiums because they would not be able to even purchase insurance.

Last edited by Amarante on Sun, Jan 15 2023, 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Orange

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 10:38 am

Amarante wrote:

To elaborate on this

Large corporations offer good health plans as well as other good benefits like matching 401(k) plans because they want to attract and retain good employees.

Offering good health plans is a win win for corporations because it is a tax deduction for the corporation and not taxable as income for an employee. Also FICA is not paid by the employer or the employee which is also a significant potential savings.

Large corporations can offer better insurance at last cost because the cost for employing each employee is averaged by a large diverse pool - I.e. there are young employees who are cheaper to insure - there are men who tend to be cheaper to insure through middle age because they don't become pregnant - of course their wives do but that is different. Having a large pool of insured people is critical to keeping cost per person lower.

Many larger companies also self insure and so they only pay the insurance company to administer the plan.

Larger companies can completely structure their coverage to be exactly what they want - of course within the legal limits of the AHCA

Health care has become very expensive so increasingly employers are making their employees pay more for the coverage. Many people don't realize how much their corporate health insurance actually costs until they get a statement of what COBRA will cost and they are shocked by how much the premium would be without the employer either paying or heavily subsidizing it. In the past - before AHCA - many people were forced to use COBRA and pay the extremely high premiums because they would not be able to even purchase insurance.

We get health insurance from one of the biggest companies in America. It’s supposed to be amazing. Yet we pay an insane amount. Between deductibles, coinsurance, co pays, and then on top of that they often only cover 20-40%. If this company is so bad I can’t imagine others are better.

Amarante

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 10:41 am

amother Orange wrote:

As I wrote, the cost of medical care in the USA has escalated so much that many companies are offering plans with less coverage than a decade ago.

They are also not subsidizing dependents to the extent they used to so sometimes the actual employee will be covered but the premiums for insuring spouse and children is quite high.

But in general coverage at a large corporation will be less expensive for comparable coverage unless one is working for a company like Walmart which is a large employer with terrible health insurance.

amother

Yarrow

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 12:26 pm

farm wrote:

Jobs like that are very competitive to get or don't pay very well and a lot of people do work them for the benefits.

amother

Yarrow

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 12:29 pm

The point of programs is to bring people up to a minimum standard of poverty. Not to make them rich. Say a family of 6. The government says a family of 6 can't live on $25K so they get $35K in programs and tax rebates etc to get to $60K in real dollars and be poor. But a family of 6 who is earning $60K is just at the level that the government is saying is a minimum. They aren't rich. So this is like asking if green apples are apples or red apples. They are both apples. Both families are poor.

rgr

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 1:04 pm

notshanarishona wrote:

Yes someone who has money for $20 to throw our on flowers shouldn’t be asking for tsedakah in my opinion. That is a undisputed (I think) luxury. The last time I remember buying flowers was for my wedding.

Tzeddakah perhaps, but the $20 saved on flowers will not bump me up to be off of programs. Pearl seems to be equating programs with tzeddakah.

#BestBubby

Sun, Jan 15 2023, 1:13 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

But the family that is WORKING instead of taking government benefits has it harder.

Because both parents work, may need 2nd car,
More cleaning help, childcare, takeout food